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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:15 pm 
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This article was in last months National geographic.

http://blogs.ngm.com/blog_central/2009/ ... -care.html

Health care in the US is expensive and not very effective but it's not the only country. Comparing Canada and Japan would indicate that Canada could improve quite a bit.

One country conspicuous in it's absence is Cuba. They have fabulous health care system with a very low cost and all government paid. They even take foriegners who can't get treated at home, including Canadians and Americans. See Michael Moore's movie "Sicko". http://sickothemovie.com/checkup/


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:22 pm 
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You really believe the Cuban dictatorship's published stats on health care, when you have no political/press freedom?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:39 pm 
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frogbyte wrote:
You really believe the Cuban dictatorship's published stats on health care, when you have no political/press freedom?


No, I don't believe any government but I do know Canadians that couldn't get the treatment they needed but got it in Cuba.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:32 pm 
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frogbyte wrote:
You really believe the Cuban dictatorship's published stats on health care, when you have no political/press freedom?


As if the our (American) government doesn't lie...

I love how anything dealing free and freedom is great in America...except health care. Then it makes people cringe :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:35 pm 
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I have heard lots of horror stories about the Canadian system, which makes me concerned about considerations to socialize the US system in a similar way.

"As if the our (American) government doesn't lie" is a straw man argument though. Their could be deceit, but you have a press and citizenry free to challenge it, unlike Cuba.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:23 am 
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frogbyte wrote:
I have heard lots of horror stories about the Canadian system, which makes me concerned about considerations to socialize the US system in a similar way.

"As if the our (American) government doesn't lie" is a straw man argument though. Their could be deceit, but you have a press and citizenry free to challenge it, unlike Cuba.


I haven't heard these horror stories. Most Canadians seem to be happy with their health care. Furthermore the US plan is NOT a single payer system like Canada has. There isn't even a public option. Healthcare=socialism is nothing but right wing propaganda paid for by the insurance companies who have been getting rich ripping people off for a long time.

That is exactly the problem in this country. All the sheeple are completely fooled by this propaganda put out there to keep corporate interests in power.

I wish people would learn critical thinking. They need to learn about the bill and what is really in it. Rather than just getting 100% of their knowledge from GOP talking points.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:34 am 
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frogbyte wrote:
I have heard lots of horror stories about the Canadian system, which makes me concerned about considerations to socialize the US system in a similar way.

"As if the our (American) government doesn't lie" is a straw man argument though. Their could be deceit, but you have a press and citizenry free to challenge it, unlike Cuba.


By the way, that wasn't a straw man. It and the Cuba comment as well, are actually the guilt by association fallacy. As in they lie, therefore they lie about everything including this. Or it can also be like this. Politicians are dishonest, therefore politician X is dishonest. As you see the conclusion isn't supported by the premise. So it was a fallacy, just not a straw man.


A straw man is when you misrepresent another persons position. For example. The Democrats are for socialism, they just want the government to control everything, and steal our money to pay for crack babies and illegal immigrants.

You then attack this misrepresented position. In this case, you attack socialism, after pinning it's position to the opposition. So that would be a straw man.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:52 am 
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Ironman wrote:
I haven't heard these horror stories.


Just because YOU haven't personally heard these horror stories, doesn't mean they are not true. Seems kind of funny that the Canadian Prime Minister chose to come to the US for his heart surgery instead of using that ultra fine Canadian health service.

Quote:
Most Canadians seem to be happy with their health care.

As are most Americans.

[quote}Healthcare=socialism is nothing but right wing propaganda paid for by the insurance companies who have been getting rich ripping people off for a long time.[/quote]
I have never been ripped off by my insurance company and quite frankly I don't know anyone who has. I have always gotten the service I paid for

Quote:
That is exactly the problem in this country. All the sheeple are completely fooled by this propaganda put out there to keep corporate interests in power.

And then you have all the sheeple that are completely fooled by the propaganda on the left saying how horrible health care is.

Quote:
I wish people would learn critical thinking. They need to learn about the bill and what is really in it. Rather than just getting 100% of their knowledge from GOP talking points.


I wish sheeple would learn critical thinking. They need to learn about the bill and what is really in it, rather than getting 100% of their knowledge from liberal talking points. If they saw what is really in it, they'd be scared to death.

C'mon Ironman, you are better than this. You are better than resorting to petty name calling.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:19 am 
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There's two aspects to the American Health Care story which are curious to me, bear in mind i'm from the UK and am looking on from afar.

1. Americans almost paranoid obsession with 'socialism'. I post regularly on another website forum (not exercise related) and the same theme crops up with most Americans there. Most of the time most posters don't even know what socialism is, although i'm not making that accustaion against posters here (not yet anyhow), but they know for sure that it is inherently evil. It's almost as if when people mention the word socialism they might as well be talking about the Devil himself.

2. What's so unique about America that in can't run a universal health care system? When you consider that all the other industrialised nations on the planet can run one, why can't the US?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:58 am 
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I'll try to answer from my point of view but you need to remember I'm nothing but a dumbass farmer.

1. We view ourselves as the greatest nation in the world. We believe that everyone has the right to the opportunity (notice I said opportunity) to be as successful as our talents will allow us to be. We believe in this with as little government interference as possible. In other words, if I develope a product (let's use drugs for example) that cures cancer. I have the right to do with and charge for that product as much as I want to (I can even give it away if I want). We believe that capitolism and free enterprise is ultimately best for the economy because eventually supply meets demand and the consumer gets the best quality lowest cost goods. With government interference, the price of the goods are artificially inflated. This (plus lack of tort reform) is what is wrong with health care in the US in my opinion, but this arguement probably belongs in your second question. Couple this with our Constitution. Though it doesn't come out and say it, our constitution basically makes socialism illegal. We live in this country and so many people come to this country in order to be free to choose their path.

2. America could easily run a universal health care system. Most of us don't want one or more specifically the one that has been proposed. We believe we have the best health care in the world. Yes, it does have its problems and we need to address those problems, but most of us feel that universaly health care is not the way to go. We can get cheaper and better quality health care with a private system than we can get with a univerasal health care system.

One of the things that makes this country great is that we have the freedom to oppose what we don't believe is correct. Bottom line, people like Ironman and I are not going to agree with each other on most political and social programs (I respect the hell out of Ironman though I don't agree with him on much of anything except his exercise advice). This country tends to fight out our differences peacefully and eventually we come up with a pretty good system of government. Currently we have one party with all the power (the senate will soon have enough votes for a filibuster). The democrats could have easily passed a health care bill - but it didn't happen. The reason is that the American populace fought and rallied like hell against what the majority of people considered just plain wrong.

Sorry, I went on a rant. I have to go to work now. I need to make money to pay the taxes for all the people sucking on the government tit who aren't working.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:17 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
By the way, that wasn't a straw man.


I saw the straw man in this case as "you can trust everything that the US govt says because it's not a dictatorship" and that was not my position.

That wasn't a rant, it was a great introduction to the US, hoosegow.

As for "socialism", it is unfortunate that it's become such a contentious word. Labeling government-run health care as socialism is just an axiom. There's no debating that the denotation of the word fits, but the connotation has became inflammatory. I'm not really sure why some react so strongly to the label, though. Ironman is not alone in this regard, but maybe he can explain why it causes such a strong emotional response for him?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:18 pm 
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frogbyte wrote:
You really believe the Cuban dictatorship's published stats on health care, when you have no political/press freedom?


frogbyte wrote:
I have heard lots of horror stories about the Canadian system, which makes me concerned about considerations to socialize the US system in a similar way.

"As if the our (American) government doesn't lie" is a straw man argument though. Their could be deceit, but you have a press and citizenry free to challenge it, unlike Cuba.


Your position was that just because Cuba is a dictatorship, you can't trust their government for reports on health care statistics. If you think my argument has no merit, then your argument that just because there is no "free press" to challenge the cuban government, they would lie about their health care statistics, has no merit as well. You don't know for sure if there is deceit either in the cuban government, regardless of the press. If we are relying on our free press to keep on government in check then we are in alot of trouble...the only thing the press is any good at is reporting when senator's cheat on their wives. Or exposing senators trying to pick up men in bathrooms. Can't blame them though, that's what keeps people watching.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Proper Knob wrote:
There's two aspects to the American Health Care story which are curious to me, bear in mind i'm from the UK and am looking on from afar.

1. Americans almost paranoid obsession with 'socialism'. I post regularly on another website forum (not exercise related) and the same theme crops up with most Americans there. Most of the time most posters don't even know what socialism is, although i'm not making that accustaion against posters here (not yet anyhow), but they know for sure that it is inherently evil. It's almost as if when people mention the word socialism they might as well be talking about the Devil himself.

2. What's so unique about America that in can't run a universal health care system? When you consider that all the other industrialised nations on the planet can run one, why can't the US?


Our histories with socialism are a lot different. As Europeans, even if your country itself does not consider itself socialist, you had much more experience with it, even inadvertently, with the other countries in Europe that adopted a more socialist mindset throughout the 20th century. They were a lot closer on your doorstep and you had a lot more interaction with them than Americans did throughout the 20th century (for instance, from what I know of the Scandanavian countries, they have been considered socialist for awhile). As Americans, it was indoctrined into our history beginning from the mid 20th to hate all things socialism, due to the the cold war with Soviet influence vs American influence. Perhaps if mexico or Canada had been socialist at the time and we had gotten along with them, it might be different. America took over the fight to spread western influence and combat socialism/communism. We fought wars over it. It was propagandized to view socialism as evil and unamerican, being even able to make an analogy of someone being a heretic to the church in times past. That is a hard history to break...considering there are still a lot of people who were alive to experience it...just giving my theory.


Last edited by Rucifer on Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:47 pm 
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hoosegow wrote:
I'll try to answer from my point of view but you need to remember I'm nothing but a dumbass farmer.

1. We view ourselves as the greatest nation in the world. We believe that everyone has the right to the opportunity (notice I said opportunity) to be as successful as our talents will allow us to be. We believe in this with as little government interference as possible. In other words, if I develope a product (let's use drugs for example) that cures cancer. I have the right to do with and charge for that product as much as I want to (I can even give it away if I want). We believe that capitolism and free enterprise is ultimately best for the economy because eventually supply meets demand and the consumer gets the best quality lowest cost goods. With government interference, the price of the goods are artificially inflated. This (plus lack of tort reform) is what is wrong with health care in the US in my opinion, but this arguement probably belongs in your second question. Couple this with our Constitution. Though it doesn't come out and say it, our constitution basically makes socialism illegal. We live in this country and so many people come to this country in order to be free to choose their path.

2. America could easily run a universal health care system. Most of us don't want one or more specifically the one that has been proposed. We believe we have the best health care in the world. Yes, it does have its problems and we need to address those problems, but most of us feel that universaly health care is not the way to go. We can get cheaper and better quality health care with a private system than we can get with a univerasal health care system.

One of the things that makes this country great is that we have the freedom to oppose what we don't believe is correct. Bottom line, people like Ironman and I are not going to agree with each other on most political and social programs (I respect the hell out of Ironman though I don't agree with him on much of anything except his exercise advice). This country tends to fight out our differences peacefully and eventually we come up with a pretty good system of government. Currently we have one party with all the power (the senate will soon have enough votes for a filibuster). The democrats could have easily passed a health care bill - but it didn't happen. The reason is that the American populace fought and rallied like hell against what the majority of people considered just plain wrong.

Sorry, I went on a rant. I have to go to work now. I need to make money to pay the taxes for all the people sucking on the government tit who aren't working.


I don't agree with a lot of your views but I definitely don't consider them the view of a dumbass farmer! I'm a liberal who agrees that the government shouldn't be in one party control! But I do just have to say...the health care bill didn't pass because democrats are spineless cowards. I got to give it to Republicans- they at least took care of their agenda when they ran things. But in the current incarnation, the universal health care bill is something I hope doesn't pass.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Rucifer wrote:
Your position was that just because Cuba is a dictatorship, you can't trust their government for reports on health care statistics.


Yes, I think you can't trust any information that comes out of state-controlled media in a dictatorship. In a non-dictatorship, there's at least the possibility of getting at the truth, but skepticism is always warranted.

Rucifer wrote:
America took over the fight to spread western influence and combat socialism/communism. We fought wars over it.


That's a good point. The US propagandized against the evil Soviet Socialist empire for decades, tainting the word "socialist". Not sure what other less-inflammatory word could be used though?

Rucifer wrote:
I got to give it to Republicans- they at least took care of their agenda when they ran things.


If their agenda was to bankrupt the nation, definitely, as Bush and the Republicans spent like a bunch of drunken sailors. (Well, not quite, as the saying goes, since a drunken sailor can't spend money he doesn't have.)


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