Paleo and grains

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by stuward » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:35 am

Bob, here's an article that picks some holes in the theory of Gluten causing gut permiability: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/ ... orter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that this doesn't say there is no connection, just that the studies are inconclusive. In the comments (always the best part of articles like this) Chris Kresser points out the symptoms to watch for. If you're a non-celiac but have increased fatigue, bloating, or pain, you may want to consider gluten to be an issue.

Whether the issue affects 7% or a third, it's still a significant number for something that's supposed to make up the base of the food pyramid.
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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by NightFaLL » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:50 am

stuward wrote:Bob, here's an article that picks some holes in the theory of Gluten causing gut permiability: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/ ... orter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that this doesn't say there is no connection, just that the studies are inconclusive. In the comments (always the best part of articles like this) Chris Kresser points out the symptoms to watch for. If you're a non-celiac but have increased fatigue, bloating, or pain, you may want to consider gluten to be an issue.

Whether the issue affects 7% or a third, it's still a significant number for something that's supposed to make up the base of the food pyramid.
I agree entirely that the food pyramid is a joke - I also agree that some people have issues with Gluten.

I just think people are too quick to blame every problem they have on gluten.

Millions of people eat grains every day and never have any issues with it.

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by NightFaLL » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:54 am

robertscott wrote:according to Mark's Daily Apple, it's likely that a third of the population are sensitive to gluten, and the number might actually be much higher.

You're right though, I shouldn't have said "everybody"
You shouldn't reference a blog for factual information.

Mark's daily apple really shouldn't be your main resource for information - from what I understand, beyond being a former athlete, he really doesn't have a whole lot of 'credentials' sort of speak.

Not to say he's wrong on things, just that it'd be better to cross reference/double check the things he says.

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:18 am

yeah ordinarily I'd agree with not using blogs but Mark's Daily Apple is just so good! I trust it 100%, although some of his ideas are a little new-age for me (geophagy anyone?).

I think it's probably the best health resource on the net

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by stuward » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:28 am

I agree that MDA is very good but it doesn't get into much discussion on the why and how. I have to admit that I hardly ever visit the site anymore. I keep getting drawn to sites like Daily Lipid that is a little more rigorous in the science part. Even that one has a WAPF bias that needs to be tempered. I guess the bottom line is that if a claim seems to support what I already think, it needs to be questioned even more.
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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by Dub » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:29 pm

About grains. This has been puzzling me and the more I research, the more I puzzle.

100% Whole Wheat bread is supposed to be better for you than white flour or similar bread. BUT, they carry almost the same glycemic index, which is way too high to be considered healthy. But what has been touted at me since childhood, and what I myself tought as a fact, 100% Whole wheat bread should digest more slowly and cause a more controlled and constant spike in blood sugar and insulin. Because of the whole wheat is way harder to digest than some processed white flour, and because the fiber and amylose and stuff like that should also lessen the glycemic load by not really digesting at all.

I mean hell, if it's all sugar then I just eat bread only on certain occasions and cut way out of it. What about 100% Oatbread? Shouldn't that be better for you?

So what the hell? Stu, any sense? Anybody?
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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:26 pm

stuward wrote:Bob, here's an article that picks some holes in the theory of Gluten causing gut permiability: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/ ... orter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that this doesn't say there is no connection, just that the studies are inconclusive. In the comments (always the best part of articles like this) Chris Kresser points out the symptoms to watch for. If you're a non-celiac but have increased fatigue, bloating, or pain, you may want to consider gluten to be an issue.

Whether the issue affects 7% or a third, it's still a significant number for something that's supposed to make up the base of the food pyramid.
oh I missed this before, I'll give it a read tomorrow when I'm supposed to be working.

Although I believe quite strongly in ditching grains, I'm always open to opposing views :)

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by Jebus » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:38 pm

robertscott wrote:yeah ordinarily I'd agree with not using blogs but Mark's Daily Apple is just so good! I trust it 100%, although some of his ideas are a little new-age for me (geophagy anyone?).

I think it's probably the best health resource on the net
Really 100%? Best health resource on the net....? From a guy that tells people to not bother getting vaccinated if your, "healthy" ???

I used to follow that site, then I realized he only takes the science that suits his opinions while dropping the rest.

His cult-like followers are even worse.

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by stuward » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:43 pm

Dub wrote:About grains. This has been puzzling me and the more I research, the more I puzzle.

100% Whole Wheat bread is supposed to be better for you than white flour or similar bread. BUT, they carry almost the same glycemic index, which is way too high to be considered healthy. But what has been touted at me since childhood, and what I myself tought as a fact, 100% Whole wheat bread should digest more slowly and cause a more controlled and constant spike in blood sugar and insulin. Because of the whole wheat is way harder to digest than some processed white flour, and because the fiber and amylose and stuff like that should also lessen the glycemic load by not really digesting at all.

I mean hell, if it's all sugar then I just eat bread only on certain occasions and cut way out of it. What about 100% Oatbread? Shouldn't that be better for you?

So what the hell? Stu, any sense? Anybody?
If you really want whole grain bread, buy whole kernels of ancient wheat. Soak overnight, then grind them yourself and bake the same day. Anything less is not "whole grain". Read Deep Nutrition by Dr. Cate Shanahan. I believe she goes into this. I haven't read Wheat Belly but I'm sure it goes into it.

As for Oat bread, the GI is really no different than wheat bread. In fact, most oat bread is half wheat anyway.

I'm not a fan of GI, or Glycemic Load, for that matter. There doesn't seem to be a lot of internal consistency in the rankings and they vary according to what you eat carbs with. Since I generally think that most people eat too many carbs anyway, I think it's better to just cut carbs, prioritizing anything without micro-nutrients.
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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:41 am

Jebus wrote:
robertscott wrote:yeah ordinarily I'd agree with not using blogs but Mark's Daily Apple is just so good! I trust it 100%, although some of his ideas are a little new-age for me (geophagy anyone?).

I think it's probably the best health resource on the net
Really 100%? Best health resource on the net....? From a guy that tells people to not bother getting vaccinated if your, "healthy" ???

I used to follow that site, then I realized he only takes the science that suits his opinions while dropping the rest.

His cult-like followers are even worse.
i hadn't heard that thing about the vaccinations. Me and the rest of the family are still going to turn up at your house in robes and sacrifice you for insulting The Leader

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by stuward » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:16 am

I just did a quick search to see if really is against vaccinations. He did say that he doesn't get flu shots because he thinks a healthy immune system will do the job. From what I can find, he hasn't spoken out against vaccinations in general. You may be confusing his advice with that of Dr. Joe Mercola who is quite unreasonably vocal about the dangers of vaccinations.

Personally, I used to be in the Sisson camp and didn't bother with flu shots, although all other vaccinations are up to date. The last few years I've had the flu shot every year, ever since my daughter got sick. I realized that the flu shot is not for my health, but for those around me.
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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by robertscott » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:17 am

phew, I feel better now...

Stu, I had a little gander at that Daily Lipid, lots there so I'll need to brew up a strong coffee and sift through it all. Are there any other health sites you'd recommend?

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by stuward » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:36 am

I like reading Chris Kresser, Robb Wolf, Paul Jaminet and Cate Shanahan. I also like Ned Koch, mainly because he's a statistics geek. Every once in a while Denise Minger writes something interesting but usually everyone else picks up on it right away. Keith Norris has a new site and it's starting to get interesting. He's so busy he doesn't write like he used to. http://ancestralmomentum.com/category/t ... -practice/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by Jebus » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:55 am

robertscott wrote:
Jebus wrote:
robertscott wrote:yeah ordinarily I'd agree with not using blogs but Mark's Daily Apple is just so good! I trust it 100%, although some of his ideas are a little new-age for me (geophagy anyone?).

I think it's probably the best health resource on the net
Really 100%? Best health resource on the net....? From a guy that tells people to not bother getting vaccinated if your, "healthy" ???

I used to follow that site, then I realized he only takes the science that suits his opinions while dropping the rest.

His cult-like followers are even worse.
i hadn't heard that thing about the vaccinations. Me and the rest of the family are still going to turn up at your house in robes and sacrifice you for insulting The Leader

Lol, just don't spoil the meat.

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Re: Paleo and grains

Post by Dub » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:25 pm

When talking about health blogs, I have Yoni Freedhoff (Weighty Matters) bookmarked. Yoni has good takes on more public and political/financial nutrition science. Much revolving around obesity, and similar stuff like the silly fact that in example, the main sponsors for the biggest sports/exercise thing since ever, The Olympics, are Coca-Cola and McDonalds. Usually he also gives a realistic look on some bad science (studies about low carb causing heart disease, or the dangers of red meat as examples). Somtimes good links and interesting articles as well.

I'll definately check those blogs and links, I'm only familiar with Sisson. I love reading about nutritional science.

And Stu, nevermind the fact wether the food is real whole grain or not. And even if 100% Whole Grain bread isn't real whole grain, I simply give it more value than the "Whole" Wheat bread that's actually 50% white flour. I do read the labels quite carefully. But the question remained that about the fiber. Shouldn't high amounts of fiber cause slower and less digestion, and thus far control and slow down the boost in blood glucose and insulin? It surely has more benefits than keeping the gut healthy. I'm also aware of greens and fruits being a better source of fiber, but Oats are my main source this far.
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