Losing fat

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chissel
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Losing fat

Post by chissel » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:34 pm

I posted this a little while ago.

I've been trying to gain a little muscle and lose some fat at the same time, using Rippetoe with a barbell, bench & squat rack, but I don't think it's been working as well as it could if I focused on the goals individually. I've been doing resistance training ('Metabolic Resistance Training') 3 days a week but on my off days I haven't thrown in any 'cardio', so I want to do that.

What I most want to do at the moment is lose the fat I have left, as quickly as possible. After reading this article that TimD gave me, it seems that metabolic resistance training is still what I should be doing, even though I'm trying to lose fat.

I have a relative amount of time on my hands so --- from the TNation article TimD posted --- I'd like to throw in (2) 'High Intensity Anaerobic Interval Training' and (3) 'High Intensity Aerobic Interval Training', and possibly (4) 'Steady State High Intensity Aerobic Training' if I can handle it.

I want to know what exercises I should do for #2 and #3.

And what are 'complexes'? And where would they fit in? And how do you do interval training, what radio etc.?

Basically, how would I fit stuff into my resistance programme:

Monday: Workout A
Tuesday: Off
Wednesday: Workout B
Thursday: Off
Friday: Workout A
Saturday: Off
Sunday: Off

Monday: Workout B
Tuesday: Off
Wednesday: Workout A
Thursday: Off
Friday: Workout B
Saturday: Off
Sunday: Off

where

Workout A:

3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench press
1x5 Deadlift

2x8 Dips
2x15 Abs

Workout B:

3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Pendlay rows

2x8 Pullups
2x15 Abs (different from workout A)


Or is Rippetoe not the best sort of resistance training programme for me to follow if I'm trying to lose weight? I figured it would be alright because of the big compound exercises, but really it feels a bit weird doing it considering it's for building mass. And should I still be eating 6 meals a day with lots of meat?

Basically, what complete diet and workout (resistance training, interval training, cardio, etc.) would you recommend for really dropping the fat. (Rather a tall order, I know!) I'm rather stuck at the moment, but want to seriously attack it!


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Post by TimD » Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:01 pm

Well, there are a lot of ways to combine the two. As far as your questions on the "metabolic intervals", these could be complexes or bodyweight exercises done for time. See the sticky I posted on DB and KB complexes, etc. Also, crossfit has all kinds of ideas on this, and a classic for metabolic intervalls might be something like this
3 rounds of time for;
400 meter sprint
21 DB two handed swings
12 pull ups
Not really something geared for maximal strength, but rather conditioning.
or
As many rounds in 15 minutes of
6 pullups
9 P bar dips (pushups)
12 bodyweight squats
Complexes are explained quite well in the sticky with the links to both cosgrove and Javorek

As far as combining the two, again, lots of ways. An example might be Day1 rippetoes, Day 2 intervals (either or), Day 3 off, Day 4 Rippetoe, Day 5 intervals(either or) Day 6 off, Day 7 start the cycle again.
Another example might look like this, more of a crossfit type thing
Day 1 Rippetoe, day 2 intervals, day 3 Rippetoe, day 4 off, Day 5 intervals, day 6 Rippetoe, day 7 intervals
Just a couple of examples. The two shouldn't really interfere with each other
Tim

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Just lose it

Post by Onlyethic » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:18 pm

It seems to me that you're really, really over-thinking this. Getting in shape is about prioritizing goals. Your first goal is to lose fat, so just do that.

The equation is simple: expend (burn) more calories than you eat, on a daily basis.

Forget interval training, forget anaerobic workouts, forget pullups, forget your biceps.

Run, bike, swim, and stretch. And in between, eat healthily.

A heavy weight or body training routine makes you hungry. Without knowing how to eat properly and manage the hunger, you will not drop the weight.

I know many on this forum will highly disagree with what I'm saying; however, the reason that I'm saying it is because after trying for way too long to drop weight by means similar to yours, I finally got fed up, put everything aside, and started running or doing some cardio 5 days a week and eating carefully as well. It worked. I lost around 30 pounds of fat in a little more than 6 months.

After you got the fat away, then the intervals can come out to play.

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Post by pdellorto » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:20 pm

The schedule a friend of mine is following is like this:

Sat/Sun off ("active rest")

Monday - Push/Pull/Legs workout A
Tuesday - Cardio
Wednesday - Metcon (see TimD's reply for two examples)
Thursday - Cardio
Friday - Push/Pull/Legs workout B

For Rippetoe, just make Monday Rippetoe A and Friday Rippetoe B. Doing it only twice a week will slow down your muscular gains but it frees up more time to do cardio and fat-burning/endurance increasing metcons.

You could add more cardio on a schedule like that, doing some extra after your workouts on MWF, or on Saturday and or Sunday. You can also add short metcons as a warmup. I've gotten into doing 5 minute workouts some mornings - 1 minute each of (for example) squats, pushups, back extensions, mountain climbers, chair dips with no rest between sets. Really gets the body revved up.

As for food, I'm not really sure...I know what I like and what seems to work for me but I'm not a diet expert by any means.

Hope that helps,

Peter

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Post by Ironman » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:20 pm

Yea, I must say I disagree with every word of it. The difference was the diet I am sure. A proper diet and weight training will burn way more fat. I've seen it happen countless times. If your diet wasn't in line when you tried other things, then of course it didn't work.

Metabolism is exponentially more complicated then then raw in - raw out.

Attacking it directly and lowering your metabolism in the process is the slowest way to do it. It's a recipe for losing muscle mass and being hungry.


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Post by TimD » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:51 pm

I see I only halfway answered yur question, left diet out of the mix, and thats most of the battle. Lots of thoughts on this, and you could put ten nutritionists in a room toghether and no two would agree. I like generalizaions, and I think following these simple guidlines would work wonders.
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... habits.htm
Tim

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Post by Onlyethic » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:59 pm

Ironman, your response was to my comment or to his? I think mine, which makes sense.

Essentially I agree with you. Metabolism and nutrition are not about just in-and-out. However, it's a matter of psychology, I find, when people are beginning. Getting started with complex lifting routines plus learning metabolism and nutrition is a lot for a beginner, especially one who is frustrated.

The reason I started doing cardio and careful eating was the simplicity. Of course, I couldn't do a set of 10 pullups at the time, but that came later.

I find that the vanity factor is a huge force in getting in shape, where most men are concerned: once they see the results of weight loss, they get pumped to start doing more.

But, like I said, it's about priority. Put a group of runners next to a group of lifters, my guess is that the runners will tend to be the ones with less body fat, even if the lifters are accomplishing more, pound for pound and hour for hour.

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Post by TimD » Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:10 pm

I wasn't going to jump in, but just go to any MMA site, or crossfit.com, watch any of the videos they put on the crossfit site, and yes, this is referring to the intervals and metabolic intervals you poo-poo'd, and take a look at the athletes over there. Very well built, not bodybuilder huge by any stretch, and the added bonus, they carry very little bodyfat through this type of training. No long distance runners could match them,the sprinters, sure, most sprinters at the elite level might even be better built, but guess what? They also use intervals, and heavy weight training.
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Post by Onlyethic » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:02 pm

Yes, but I'm not talking about pro or near-pro athletes who are in good enough condition to make a video. I'm talking about people who are struggling to shed a few pounds and think they're doing intervals because they do a set of crunches and a set of pushups with a two minute break in between.

This is not an argument of who's in better shape (runners or lifters), or what will get you into better shape. My own workout is much more geared to weight training, body weight training and, lo, intervals.

The real point is that getting started demands simplicity, in addition to a basic level of aerobic fitness. The goal is to lose the weight. So focus on losing the weight.

I've seen too many people throw their hands in the air because they believe they simply can't do the prescribed workout; or they're not used to being sore; or lifting makes them so hungry they just overeat. It takes experience and careful progress to get to a point where you can burn fat and manage a diet while lifting. Not easy for someone who's starting out.

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Post by pdellorto » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:03 pm

I would bet the number of cardio + plus diet folks who get frustrated and fail is much higher than the number of anaerobic training/HIIT + diet folks who get frustrated and fail. Both in raw numbers and as a percentage.

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Post by Onlyethic » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:51 pm

Could be. Not my experience though. But you really think that an average exercise Joe is going to get more frustrated riding a bike for 40 minutes, 4 times a week, than trying to figure out if he should do burpees on squat days, or whether or not to do chest-tri splits, and if he should take a day off, two days off, and if he should be eating protein before, after, during (or neither or all) a workout?

Seems like "Jog, bike or do your favorite sport for an hour" is a lot easer to swallow than figuring out what HIIT involves. Or what it stands for. But I wouldn't actually bet on that.

(P.S. I hope this thread doesn't disqualify me from asking HIIT advice in the future for my own workouts, which rely heavily on it and all the other stuff in question here.)

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Post by TimD » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:11 pm

Who in the heck is talking about near pro athlete's in the video's? I'm 58 YO, have osteoarthritus, and can still do these Metcon workouts in 20 mins. I still love tackling heavy weights, and clean and push pressed 195 to celebtate my 50th B day about 8 years ago, at bwt 160 We aren't talking anything major here, just a combination of training smarts combined with diet. You'll see that the crossfit types aren't elite athletes, most do it to keep fit a lot of the are doing it for first responders PT requirement. What in the heck ix wrong with that. They are average Joes and Joe = ettes. Yes, some of the stuff you taled about COMBINED with diet will work, but as PDELL stated, most don't put enough intensity into short bursts, fail, and get discourged. I have been in many gyms, where people come in, get on a recombant, read the paper and and wonder why they aren't losing weight. Walk, when you could drive, or ride the bike. It all helps, but fast bursts help more. Your description of the metabolism leaves a lot to be desired. Look at studies done on hormone manipulation, especially with that of gh. Work to rest ratio's are very important, and gh release causes muscle repair, some growth, and fat buning.
End of rant.
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Post by Ironman » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:45 pm

In addition, nobody said anything about complex weight lifting routines. I start beginners out with very basic stuff. Just variations of squat, row, bench and deadlift. Maybe a little isolation sprinkled in. Nothing complicated though.


Nice rant, by the way, Tim.

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Post by Onlyethic » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:30 pm

Tim, you're completely missing my point. I'm not saying that HIIT etc training does not work. I'm saying it does work. I'm only saying that it is difficult to learn and difficult for someone new to it to have the discipline and understanding to properly do it. Riding a bike, on the other hand, does not require that level of discipline or, more importantly, knowledge.

And while you are not a professional athlete, you are certainly not average when it comes to knowledge about fitness and training-- you are, after all, a moderator of a sophisticated fitness forum. People who don't know what a decline bench is are not. They are average when it comes to fitness knowledge and understanding; you aren't.

Ironman speaks more to the point. A simple workout. Fine. My point still stands. He lists four or five things to do. I'm talking about telling someone to do one thing-- AT FIRST.

I know it seems like I'm treading on hallowed grounds here (like I'm driving a backhoe over those grounds) but I'm not. Let me make it clear: YES, HIIT and more sophisticated, weight bearing exercise are more effective and efficient; YES, almost anyone can do it, physically, after some practice and learning; YES, it constitutes a superior work out.

But when I start explaining these things to, for instance, my overweight techie geek friend and watch his eyes daze as I use acronyms, combinations, explanations about metabolism -- even when I explain slowly, and show as we go-- I know that it's a lost cause.

On the other hand, when I say, "bike 4 times a week and improve your diet," I can see it has penetrated his geeky brain.

Much the same that his telling me that if I want to be a web programmer I should learn to build APIs, get some experience with PERL, then understand C+ modules, and maybe C++, and definitely PHP for powerful web apps. Or, on the other hand, if he tells me, "Learn HTML and go from there." The first route is much more effective and I'll be a better programmer; but I don't know what he's talking about, where to start, or if I want to entangle myself in such as mess. The second, while stupid to an experienced person, and rough, and slow, and gross, sounds simple, understandable, and most importantly, doable to my non-techie ears.

It's a perspective thing: to Tim, Ironman, myself even, a sophisticated workout that takes metabolism into account is a no-brainer. To someone who has no clue, it sounds like something Navy SEALS do when all they want is to be able to close their pants better.

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Post by pdellorto » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:47 pm

I understand the analogy, but I don't think it's really that complicated...I mean, look at Simplefit. Do 3 exercises - pullups, pushups, and squats - in different combinations for time or rounds, depending on the day. That's not really more complicated than biking, once you start to examine what that means - how far? How fast? How much time? What about my upper body?

It's pretty simple to do HIIT-style stuff with a short explanation, and the effects are worth it.


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