Training for Football

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BIGtenMaDbAdGeR
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Post by BIGtenMaDbAdGeR » Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:14 pm

nygmen wrote:
BIGtenMaDbAdGeR wrote: Also, squatting below parallel is not a good thing.
As a personal thing, maybe...

But as a general rule, I tend to disagree
I disagreed, too, because I felt much better when I broke "rock bottom" versus staying at parallel. But the trainers in my high school and trainers at my college told me to stay at parallel or slightly below it to reduce the chance of injury.


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Post by BIGtenMaDbAdGeR » Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:23 pm

Jungledoc wrote:
BIGtenMaDbAdGeR wrote:Also, squatting below parallel is not a good thing. After asking numerous physical therapists and trainers because my body has a natural way of wanting to go below parallel, they determined it places too much stress on the lower back. They said to call it a form of hyperextension with added weight if you will.
Whoa! Now you've done it! You've pushed a really hot button there.

If you can't squat below parallel without hyperextending, then it is a flexibility and form problem that needs to be fixed. Fix it, and then squat below parallel.

However, this is not the problem for most people, who tend to hyperflex (round their low back) at the bottom of the squat. This, too, is a form and flexibility issue.

Not everyone agrees (in fact, many of the best authorities, e.g. Rippetoe) that that you need to go ATG, but everyone that I've read after who seems to know what they're talking about says that you should go at least to, or slightly below parallel. You won't hurt your back if you use good form. Most people worry about the knees on this, and the evidence seems to be that trying to stop the squat at or just above parallel is harder on the knees than going just below. If you don't go to parallel, you will miss many of the benefits of this great exercise.
Surely this is a controversial subject. I have looked into it somewhat, but according to trainers and therapists I've talked to, they told me not to go beyond parallel or at most slightly beyond. The only reason why I asked them is because I have some strange natural flexibility in my legs; I can go nearly to the point where my butt is touching the ground. Perhaps my abnormality scared them into thinking that I was going to injure myself, but I never did thanks to a belt and proper form.

However, what exercises would you recommend to increase flexibility for those who round their back towards the bottom of the squat? I see this all too often when I go to the gym, especially with younger kids. It seems like the shorter guys don't have as much of a problem with this when I'm watching their form compared to the taller guys who appear to "round their lower back" more towards the bottom.

Also, any thoughts on my posed questions above, the purpose of my post? :?:

Thanks!

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Post by BIGtenMaDbAdGeR » Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:49 pm

Nvm, I found a great video on the forums. http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_for ... _squatters

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:39 am

according to trainers and therapists I've talked to, they told me not to go beyond parallel or at most slightly beyond.
What I find annoying are those who promote themselves as professional "trainers" or "therapist" but don't know what they are talking about. The most effective cure for these individuals is a rectal extraction, more commonly termed as "pulling your head out..."

This bring us to. exactly what it the background, experience and education of these "trainers" and "therapist?"
The only reason why I asked them is because I have some strange natural flexibility in my legs; I can go nearly to the point where my butt is touching the ground.
Well, if it hurts you to do it, Don't do it. Or as KjP and Jungledoc said in one post, "Fix it."
Perhaps my abnormality scared them into thinking that I was going to injure myself
Perhaps these guys are just idiots. Ask them WHY the came up to this conclusion.

Then ask them to provide you with research that backs up their statement. With most idiots, that pretty much shut them up.
However, what exercises would you recommend to increase flexibility for those who round their back towards the bottom of the squat?
I'll leave that for others to answer.

Kenny Croxdale

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Re: Training for Football

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:35 am

Does anyone know of any dynamic stretching/warm up exercises that NFL-level coaches/players utilize before working out?
The best dynamic stretching exercises are those that are specific to the sports movement you are going to perform.
Also, I'm looking for the most common static stretches they use as well, aside from toe touches, etc.
Turn a static toe touch into a dynamic toe touch. Bounce your hands off your toes. Even better, if you are flexible enough, bounce the palms of your hand off the ground while keeping you knees in a semi locked position.
I want to develop my type II muscle fibers and utilize my anaerobic system more than doing endurance training. But really what I meant was does anyone know of essential exercises for training for the such, other than interval sprints, shuttles, etc?
Why? For what purpose or reason?

You need to use movement that are specific to the sports movement. Interval sprint, interval shuttles, interval jumps, etc are specific to football.

Research shows (Tabata Protocol) that interval training substantially improves "maximum aerobic capacity" and "improves anaerobic capacity." "The Secrete of Tabata." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_n6011850

The "Tabata Protocol" can be implemetned into any exercise. As an example, Step Ups. http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadric ... tepUp.html

Perform 1 set of Step Ups with the right leg. Then perform 1 set of Step Ups with the left leg. Rest 10 seconds. Then repeat.

You want to repeat the above sequence for a total of 8 sets for each leg.

Start out by performing the Step Up with you body weight on the first set. On the second set, hold a 10 lb pair of dumbbells. On the third set, hold a 15 lb pair of dumbbells, etc.

Tim uses "Complex Training."

Or peform circuit training with 10 second rest periods between sets.

The conditioning benefits of this for sports is enormous.

Kenny Croxdale


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Post by BIGtenMaDbAdGeR » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:58 am

Kenny,

That's the problem I guess. It is not that difficult to become certified as a personal trainer, nor as a physical therapist when compared to other medical professions. Furthermore, I do not believe all professionals keep updated with new studies and data, so they often have the "old school" way of thinking. Of course, as a high school student whom knows no better, I took their word for it without any skepticism. That is why I am seeking info like yours through forums so that I can rationalize what others think or have discovered.
"Well, if it hurts you to do it, Don't do it. Or as KjP and Jungledoc said in one post, 'Fix it.'
What about the saying, "no pain, no gain!"? hehe :lol:
"Turn a static toe touch into a dynamic toe touch. Bounce your hands off your toes. Even better, if you are flexible enough, bounce the palms of your hand off the ground while keeping you knees in a semi locked position."
I agree to a certain extent. Bouncing while holding a static stretch can cause injury, even with proper "form" for this activity. With a dynamic toe touches, it would be similar to this and might cause injury, but perhaps spreading the legs further out into "dynamic floor touches" instead, what do you think?
Why? For what purpose or reason?
Type II muscle fibers are used more for football, or I should say American football as you might be thinking of soccer. Football is reliant on short-bursts of power, which relies more so on anaerobics and therefore fast-twitch (type II) muscle fibers. However, football does rely heavily on endurance (or aerobics), but with working anaerobics like sprinting the aerobic capacity will improve as well. Not to say interval training isn't beneficial, as I have read and experienced that it is, but specifically for football, sprinting is key. Here's a study's abstract that reflects this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1808 ... d_RVDocSum
Perform 1 set of Step Ups with the right leg. Then perform 1 set of Step Ups with the left leg. Rest 10 seconds. Then repeat.

You want to repeat the above sequence for a total of 8 sets for each leg.

Start out by performing the Step Up with you body weight on the first set. On the second set, hold a 10 lb pair of dumbbells. On the third set, hold a 15 lb pair of dumbbells, etc.

Tim uses "Complex Training."

Or peform circuit training with 10 second rest periods between sets.

The conditioning benefits of this for sports is enormous.

Kenny Croxdale
Thanks Kenny, I appreciate the help! I totally forgot about step ups. I will definitely incorporate a modified version of these step ups into my training regime :idea:

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:56 am

BIGtenMaDbAdGeR wrote:Kenny,

That's the problem I guess. It is not that difficult to become certified as a personal trainer,
Brandon,

I agree. Anyone can become certified as a personal trainer. There are plenty of off the wall personal training certification you can obtain.

You trade paper with the off the wall personal training certification organizations. You give them paper money and they give you a paper certificate.
nor as a physical therapist when compared to other medical professions.
I DON'T agree, here. The majority of Physical Therapist are very knowledgeable. I have a great deal of respect for them.

What "other medical professions" are you referring to?
Furthermore, I do not believe all professionals keep updated with new studies and data, so they often have the "old school" way of thinking. Of course, as a high school student whom knows no better, I took their word for it without any skepticism. That is why I am seeking info like yours through forums so that I can rationalize what others think or have discovered.
Skepticism is a good thing. I agree with, "Don't trust anyone over 30"...and I am waaaaaay past 30.

Question other. Make them provide research data that supports their information.

Two of the best on this board at doing that are Tim and Stu.
I totally forgot about step ups. I will definitely incorporate a modified version of these step ups into my training regime


Brandon, the main thing is to understand the concept. By doing so, you can design your own program with any exercise you want.

It's like the biblical story of giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish. Once you know how to fish (write your own program), you can feed yourself.

Kenny Croxdale

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Post by stuward » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:47 am

Kenny Croxdale wrote:"Don't trust anyone over 30"...and I am waaaaaay past 30.
Of course you realize that it's only those of us over 50 that remember this.

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Post by Jungledoc » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:11 am

Yeah! The people who were over 30 when I was using this phrase are now pretty much over 70!

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Post by Proper Knob » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:34 am

'It is not that difficult to become certified as a personal trainer, nor as a physical therapist when compared to other medical professions'

My girlfriend is studying to be a Physiotherapist here in the UK, and believe me, it is a serious amount of hard work and study!!! A three year degree in Sports Therapy and now a two year MA to become a Physiotherapist. That's five years study..........slightly more difficult than becoming PT.

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Post by BIGtenMaDbAdGeR » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:58 pm

Proper Knob wrote:'It is not that difficult to become certified as a personal trainer, nor as a physical therapist when compared to other medical professions'

My girlfriend is studying to be a Physiotherapist here in the UK, and believe me, it is a serious amount of hard work and study!!! A three year degree in Sports Therapy and now a two year MA to become a Physiotherapist. That's five years study..........slightly more difficult than becoming PT.
What I was referring to when I vaguely said "medical professions" were doctors. My initial plan when I was going to UW-Madison was to become a cardiothoracic surgeon. So when compared to the education entailed between the two, physical therapy is not that difficult imo. Perhaps my standards are too high, dunno.

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Post by BIGtenMaDbAdGeR » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:13 pm

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
BIGtenMaDbAdGeR wrote:Kenny,

That's the problem I guess. It is not that difficult to become certified as a personal trainer,
Brandon,

I agree. Anyone can become certified as a personal trainer. There are plenty of off the wall personal training certification you can obtain.

You trade paper with the off the wall personal training certification organizations. You give them paper money and they give you a paper certificate.
nor as a physical therapist when compared to other medical professions.
I DON'T agree, here. The majority of Physical Therapist are very knowledgeable. I have a great deal of respect for them.

What "other medical professions" are you referring to?
Furthermore, I do not believe all professionals keep updated with new studies and data, so they often have the "old school" way of thinking. Of course, as a high school student whom knows no better, I took their word for it without any skepticism. That is why I am seeking info like yours through forums so that I can rationalize what others think or have discovered.
Skepticism is a good thing. I agree with, "Don't trust anyone over 30"...and I am waaaaaay past 30.

Question other. Make them provide research data that supports their information.

Two of the best on this board at doing that are Tim and Stu.
I totally forgot about step ups. I will definitely incorporate a modified version of these step ups into my training regime


Brandon, the main thing is to understand the concept. By doing so, you can design your own program with any exercise you want.

It's like the biblical story of giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish. Once you know how to fish (write your own program), you can feed yourself.

Kenny Croxdale
I agree with you, physical therapists are knowledgeable. I never said otherwise. The point I was making as far as the physical therapist at my high school was that not all PT's keep updated with new studies and data, so sometimes there knowledge becomes obsolete. This explains the issue with the PT at my high school.

As stated above, my vague reference to other "medical professions" were to doctors, like a cardiothoracic surgeon.

I've been reading a lot of Tim and Stu's posts, and I have learned a lot. This is why I come on these forums, b/c of experienced people like them who can better elaborate the practicality of their methods rather than a professor who tells you, "here, this is what this is and this is how you do it, and this is how you benefit."

I totally agree with that metaphor. To elaborate on it though, there are many types of fish (programs). Some of these fish provide different benefits and some of these fish lose their benefits with how they are cooked (implemented). The only way of knowing how each fish will benefit you is through eating different kinds and hoping that you don't have an allergic reaction (trial and error). I'm hoping that what I've learned so far is enough to feed me (get me by). But I'm sure as I continue my education, my perspective will evolve.

Thanks everyone for your input, I really appreciate it!

-Brandon

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Post by Matt Z » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:04 pm

I think part of the problem is that physical therapists normally only see people who've already injured themselves. Meanwhile, they often get incomplete and/or inaccurate information from clients. Consequently, some physical therapists develop unfair baises against specific exercises and techniques.

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Post by Matt Z » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:13 pm

For example, a client might explain that "I was bench pressing when something in my shoulder popped." It's unlikely the client would disclose that he was using horrible form, that he hadn't lifted in months, or that he was attemping a 1RM with 50 lbs more than he'd ever done before. Likewise, factors like overtraining and strength imbalances are often overlooked.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:59 am

What about the saying, "no pain, no gain!"? hehe :lol:
"No pain, no gain" is a reference to intensity. To progress, at some point in your training, you need to push youself into an area of discomfort.
"Turn a static toe touch into a dynamic toe touch. Bounce your hands off your toes. Even better, if you are flexible enough, bounce the palms of your hand off the ground while keeping you knees in a semi locked position."
I agree to a certain extent. Bouncing while holding a static stretch can cause injury, even with proper "form" for this activity.

Ok, I think I know what you are saying but I am going to be a bit anal her. You CANNOT "bounce while holdinga static stretch."

That is an oxymoron. It like saying something is bitter sweet.
With a dynamic toe touches, it would be similar to this and might cause injury, but perhaps spreading the legs further out into "dynamic floor touches" instead, what do you think?
If your concerned with injurying youself, then sit on the sofa and watch TV. Football is the wrong sport for you. In football its not if you get injured but when.

Dynamic stretching is a warm up for the movement you will perform ont he field. Thus, you NEED to perform dyanamic stretching movement.

Your second option is DON'T do any dynamic stretching. Go out on the field "cold turkey" and see how that works for you.

I am NOT the only one who advocates this. Exrx states that as well: "Dynamic stretching incorporates movements that mimic a specific sport or exercise in an exaggerated yet controlled manner; often include during the warm-up or in preparation for a sports event. http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Stretching.html
Why? For what purpose or reason?
Type II muscle fibers are used more for football, or I should say American football as you might be thinking of soccer. Football is reliant on short-bursts of power, which relies more so on anaerobics and therefore fast-twitch (type II) muscle fibers. However, football does rely heavily on endurance (or aerobics), but with working anaerobics like sprinting the aerobic capacity will improve as well.

Fooball "DOES NOT rely heavily on endurance." Football is a form of INTERVALS. A play in football last about 10 seconds.

After the dog pile of players is clearned, the offense has 25 seconds to get start the next play. Thus, a player can get approximately 30 seoncds of rest between plays...THIS IS INTERVALS!

In sports, you NEED to emulate the energy system of your sport. So, in Periodization Training that means as you near the football season, you NEED to perform movement in which you exert "short burst of power" (as you said) for 5-10 seconds with rest periods of 20-30 seconds.

Doing so works the fast twitch muscle fiber.

Kenny Croxdale


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