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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:41 am
by Proper Knob
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:16 am
by Proper Knob

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:17 am
by Jungledoc
So what?

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:04 am
by pdellorto
Jungledoc wrote:The tradition on this forum is to share information, not to be cryptic and socratic.
Yes, please. I come here for answers, not to find a list of questions to answer for myself. The "answer for myself" part is the coming here and reading of threads.

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:01 am
by Stephen Johnson
I agree that civility is what makes this board different (and better) than most others that I've seen. Hopefully, this will continue during the new year.

Merry Christmas, everyone.

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:05 pm
by Proper Knob
Jungledoc wrote:So what?
So.......nothing.

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:00 pm
by Peter Rouse
Peter Rouse wrote:Now when I say knee dominant extension/flexion I am not referring to leg extension or the leg curl.... these I would NEVER use.

People need to stop thinking muscles when training and think movement. A knee extension dominant lunge is a totally different movement pattern than a squat pattern requiring a whole different set of movement skills that will carry over in other areas.

Now with the other persons post on what muscles are worked that are different.... well how many nerve interventions do the hamstring complex have?

The Hamstrings (if you want to talk individual muscles) are capable of producing movement at the hip (extension) while producing no movement at the knee (stabilization) but they are also capable of producing no movement at the hip (stabilization) while producing movement at the knee (movement). So what does this mean? It means they require a totally different recruitment pattern for each movement.

As far as the back squat, the only people I do this with are power lifters whole require the movement for their sport. I do use the squat pattern as a progression for relearning the pattern (most people have lost this ability) but once a load is reached I drop it.

For quad dominant movement I use the following

Bulgarian Squats
Step Ups
Single Leg Squats (and variations)
Front Squat (mostly as an assisting exercise for the clean)

I know some of this may go against main stream thoughts or may even match some or your own ideas but we all need to have open minds when looking and much of what we have been sold as being gospel.
Sorry guys, I was not meaning to be patronizing as I thought I had given a simplified answer above but I guess I made it too simple and some people missed it.

The semitendinosus, the semimembranosus, and the biceps femoris (long head) as stated earlier all cross the hip and knee while the bicep femoris (short head) only crosses the knee.

All muscles generally have two nerve interventions, primary and a secondary.

Now the two muscles, semitendinosus and the semimembranosus have four nerve interventions allowing for the muscle to function in two different ways similtanously thus allowing the proximal to stabilize from the hip while creating knee flexion or to stabilize from the knee while creating hip extension. I hope you get this so far, if not please let me know and I will attempt to explain further.

So why is knee flexion so imporant even with open chain exercises such as the slide board leg curl. Btw we start with the slide board the build them up to the reverse leg curl (GHR).

Anyway back to knee flexion... this function is important in helping stabilize the knee in a deep squat position among others. If you look at EMG studies in well trained individuals you will notice an increase activity in the distal portion of the semitendinosus and semimembranosus in a deep squat - even without loading.

Hope this helps.

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:38 pm
by hoosegow
Just keep this in mind Peter. You can't make it too simple. Remember you got people like me on this board. I am just a dumb farmer who likes to lift heavy stuff. Those six syllable words get my head to spinning. It is good to have you on this board, though. It appears you have a lot to offer.

Let me see if I got this right. You got Four muscles in the quad. 3 in the long head, 1 in the short. Each muscle is able to move four ways. You need one nerve head/cluster/whatever for each movement. All this allows your hip and knee to move either in sync or opposite or any combination of those two.

If you train one way and ignore the other you can end up over loading your knee and getting hurt. Thus knee flexion strength (?) is important to help stablize the load when you squat.

Did I get it?

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:11 pm
by Peter Rouse
hoosegow wrote:Just keep this in mind Peter. You can't make it too simple. Remember you got people like me on this board. I am just a dumb farmer who likes to lift heavy stuff. Those six syllable words get my head to spinning. It is good to have you on this board, though. It appears you have a lot to offer.

Let me see if I got this right. You got Four muscles in the quad. 3 in the long head, 1 in the short. Each muscle is able to move four ways. You need one nerve head/cluster/whatever for each movement. All this allows your hip and knee to move either in sync or opposite or any combination of those two.

If you train one way and ignore the other you can end up over loading your knee and getting hurt. Thus knee flexion strength (?) is important to help stablize the load when you squat.

Did I get it?
Kind of but you said quad when it should be hamstrings when talking about the four muscles.

But also remember this can't be trained on a leg curl - no hip stabilization required for one.

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:09 pm
by Jungledoc
Thanks, Peter! That does make it a lot more clear.

I'm not familiar with slide-board curls--does that require a specialized piece of equipment?

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:12 pm
by Ironman
Ah, now I see what you were talking about.

Very impressive resume by the way.

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:38 pm
by Jungledoc
Peter Rouse wrote:Sorry guys, I was not meaning to be patronizing as I thought I had given a simplified answer above but I guess I made it too simple and some people missed it.

The semitendinosus, the semimembranosus, and the biceps femoris (long head) as stated earlier all cross the hip and knee while the bicep femoris (short head) only crosses the knee.

All muscles generally have two nerve interventions, primary and a secondary.

Now the two muscles, semitendinosus and the semimembranosus have four nerve interventions allowing for the muscle to function in two different ways similtanously thus allowing the proximal to stabilize from the hip while creating knee flexion or to stabilize from the knee while creating hip extension. I hope you get this so far, if not please let me know and I will attempt to explain further.

So why is knee flexion so imporant even with open chain exercises such as the slide board leg curl. Btw we start with the slide board the build them up to the reverse leg curl (GHR).

Anyway back to knee flexion... this function is important in helping stabilize the knee in a deep squat position among others. If you look at EMG studies in well trained individuals you will notice an increase activity in the distal portion of the semitendinosus and semimembranosus in a deep squat - even without loading.

Hope this helps.
I thought for a few minutes and came back to ask a couple more questions.

What is the functional difference between the primary and secondary innervations? Completely different sets of motor units? Or duplicate innervation of the same motor units?

It the case of these two with four innervations, is that essentially two primary and two secondary innervations? Each affecting different regions of the muscle? So the distal and proximal parts of those muscles can contract independently of each other? Or do they just tend to activate with slightly different timing?

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:43 am
by Proper Knob
Slide board leg curls, and an explanation of what Peter is talking about (I think).

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk35uFBMb5g