Proportional Weight Targets

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pdellorto
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Post by pdellorto » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:58 am

Jungledoc wrote:Should I set a goal (BW, 2xBW, etc.) or should I just keep pushing up not knowing how far I can go?
Well, both.

- Set goals for your training, so you can measure your progress against some kind of yardstick. Diverse goals help, so you don't feel crushed if one proves too difficult. For example, setting a goal of a 2.5m long jump plus a 2x bodyweight DL plus bench pressing your bodyweight for 5 reps is pretty varied, and if you can't reach all of them you've still reached some.

- Don't let those goals stop you from progressing. If you aim for a 2.5x bodyweight deadlift and you can do it, aim for 3x and see if that's possible.


Give yourself metrics for measuring success, but don't make them walls to run into or cliffs to fall off of.


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Post by stuward » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:45 am

Jungle Doc,
Goals are important but they should be realistic. At 55 it's going to be harder to progress than for someone who's 25. You may never reach what you may consider "strong". I don't think it's reasonable for someone to start lifting in middle age and expect to hit 2.5 to 3 times BW in the deadlift. There are very few people that can do that and most of them are either young, genetically gifted or have been doing specialized training for many years.

In the strength standards post, Novice is described as "This strength level supports the demands of vigorous recreational activities", while "The intermediate level indicates some degree of specialization in the exercises and a high level of performance at the recreational level."

Decide why you want the strength, and aim for the level that will support that lifestyle as the minimum. Then adjust according to your goals considering your unique gifts and ambitions.

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Post by Jungledoc » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:51 am

stuward wrote:Jungle Doc,
Goals are important but they should be realistic. At 55 it's going to be harder to progress than for someone who's 25. You may never reach what you may consider "strong".
Too true!
stuward wrote:I don't think it's reasonable for someone to start lifting in middle age and expect to hit 2.5 to 3 times BW in the deadlift. There are very few people that can do that and most of them are either young, genetically gifted or have been doing specialized training for many years.
None of which is me.
stuward wrote:In the strength standards post, Novice is described as "This strength level supports the demands of vigorous recreational activities", while "The intermediate level indicates some degree of specialization in the exercises and a high level of performance at the recreational level."
Ironically, weight lifting is about my only recreational activity!
stuward wrote:Decide why you want the strength, and aim for the level that will support that lifestyle as the minimum. Then adjust according to your goals considering your unique gifts and ambitions.

Stu
Sounds simple, but not as simple as it sounds.

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Post by pdellorto » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:06 am

Jungledoc wrote:Sounds simple, but not as simple as it sounds.
It never is.

But while I picked numbers out of my hat (2.5x bw DL, etc.), it's worth trying to see what you can do. But since this is recreation and health for you, you don't really need to push it if you feel like you're hitting limitations. Or if you're getting hurt trying to push too fast, etc.

It would be different if you were in a competitive sport, or if your job and life required you to push harder and faster to get to where you need to go. You're not parachuting into the jungle to save kids, you're just walking over to them. So you can afford just see what you can do without getting hurt in the process. :)

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Post by Jungledoc » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:20 am

Well, I've completely hijacked this thread. Sorry.

I do want some actual numeric goals for the long-run. I'll work on it.


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Post by Matt Z » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:10 pm

For Jungledoc and the OP, I think short-term goals are more useful than long term ones, since they can help you stay focused and motivated, without feeling overwhelmed.

Just try to set goals you can realistically achieve over a period of six months or a year. For example, someone benching 135 lbs might shoot for 185 lbs six months from now. Then, whenever you reach a milestone, set a new goal.

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Post by Matt Z » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:13 pm

PS.) Of course you may end up reaching some of these goals much sooner then expected, in which case you may want to be a little more ambitious next time.

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Post by Proper Knob » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:25 am

I read an article recently about a guy who was training to run 50 marathons in 50 days, and he was asked the question 'How do you begin to comprehend such an enormous task?'. He answered that he doesn't think of it in terms of 50 marathons, it's just one step after another.

The point i'm trying to make (somewhere), is that we all have goals we want to achieve. ie 2xBW squat and DL or 1.5BP or whatever they are. For me those goals are a way off and a lot of training to be done in between. If i looked at that in it's entirety it's a pretty daunting task, so instead i break it down into a succession of 'mini-goals' till i get to where i want to be.

For instance i squatted 220lbs recently, now my next goal will be 240 and then 260 and so on. It's a lot better than thinking 'Only 130lbs to get to 350!!'.

That's my approach anyhow, and if it helps anyone that's even better.

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Post by KPj » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:33 am

Interesting discussion - Something that's not really been covered much actually. It made me think about my own approach, and I realise that i've subconsciously made it quite complicated. I change my program every 4 weeks. I change my 'big exercise', every 2 weeks. And the 'big exercise' is almost always the first exercise of the first lower body day, and the first exercise of the first upper body day. I do 2 'uppers' and 2'lowers' per week, so, 4x per week, upper lower split.

So, the big exercises are obviously a compound movement variation. These are a huge focus, so every single work out I do these, I have expectations in my head for what I want to achieve. Even the assistance stuff needs to improve. Improvement isn't just more weight - its more reps, or just 'better' reps.

Next would be short term goals. One I have just now is to DL 485lbs with in 10 weeks from now. And, to get my 3RM box squat max BACK to 340lbs within 4 weeks (already at 310), after spending a lot of time not squatting from a knee injury.

Then there's long term goals. Seems like justa short time ago I was desperate for 2x body weight DL, and now i'm desperate for 3x bodyweight. I need a 500lbs DL at same b/weight to get to 3x b/weight. So my short term goal of 485 will only get my closer to the long term goal... It's been a 'long term goal' for a good 4-5 months now.

I'm giving you my favourite lift there, though. My goal for my bench press is interesting - to focus on it without killing my shoulder! I got 1.5x b/w at my last stint at the PL club, which was maybe my third time benching to my chest in close to 2 years. 2x b/w seems like forever away, but I'm sure i'll get it, may just take a while.

An interesting and frustrating thing is that i'm finding it more difficult to stay close to 168 b/w. It's going beyond much quicker. Starting to feel like I need to either deliberatley lose good mass to get down to it, or just bite the bullet and let it go higher. And losing good mass doesn't make sense. It's as if my b/w 'wants' to sit at 175-ish. And that changes the landscape of my long term goals...

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Post by Jungledoc » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:17 am

Any goals I set regarding a particular weight would just be arbitrary. Squatting 1 1/2 x BW or DL 2X BW just sounds cool to me. There's nothing particularly special about 260 or 340 pounds, but I think it would be fun to do those some day. If I don't my life won't be a failure. I don't know at this point what I'd say my goals are for all the major lifts. I'll come up with more specifics in the next few days. I agree with having both long-term and short-term goals.

My main short-term lifting goal at the moment is to gain some ground on Peter in face-pulls while he's hurt! :lol:

More important are my functional goals. I don't really have any specific strength requirements for my work or recreation, but there are some things is daily life that lifting helps with. At this point most of these are already pretty much in place, so the goals are really to maintain things.

Goals:

To keep my weight at a reasonably healthy level for the rest of my life. I think that's under 175 or 180 pounds, although as we have discussed on other threads there's no clear way to define that. I'd like to see what it's like to have my weight around 160 for a few months--I may revise the goal! Lifting is an integral part of my weight control.

To keep my arthritis under control. My arthritis bothers me much less when I exercise regularly than when I don't. Right now I'm only takeing glucosamine and costochondroitin for it, and it's not bothering at all. (I had surgery for the arthritis in my right knee about 3 years ago.)

To have good posture and to be able to move easily and freely and without pain or stiffness in daily activities. Other than when I hurt myself and make everything worse, lifting really has allowed me to feel and function better in all parts of my life. I have a ways to go on this one.

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Post by pdellorto » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:57 am

Both of these topics are very interesting and worth dicussions

- what are the various proportional weights that you should be able to lift if you are in balance? (For example, if you can back squat X, what's a reasonable front squat? If you can bench Y, what should your close grip bench press look like?). I've seen suggestions of these, but many are fairly arbitrary and don't seem very valueable.

- what are reasonable maximal goals for a trainee given a certain starting age? If you start at age 16 and I start at age 36 with otherwise identical bodies, would we necessarily have the same maximums? What's a reasonable "discount" on your maximums based on physical age and training age?
Jungledoc wrote:My main short-term lifting goal at the moment is to gain some ground on Peter in face-pulls while he's hurt! :lol:
I've got a mess-up S.I. joint and bad posture, but I'm still going to the gym today buddy...

Jungledoc wrote:I think that's under 175 or 180 pounds, although as we have discussed on other threads there's no clear way to define that.
How tall are you?

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Post by KPj » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:10 am

Jungledoc wrote:Any goals I set regarding a particular weight would just be arbitrary. Squatting 1 1/2 x BW or DL 2X BW just sounds cool to me. There's nothing particularly special about 260 or 340 pounds, but I think it would be fun to do those some day.
I agree. Strength relative to bodyweight is what appeals to me above all else. But with short term goals i.e. DL Xlbs, it's really my way of not caring about weight gain. When I started getting obsessed with strength, I was 145-ish lbs. I always just imagined it would stay around that, you know, because allegedly you don't get bigger if you train below 6 reps. or is it 5, or 8? 10 maybe? :wink:

When i'm in a strength phase which is pretty much most of the time I want to be on a calorie surplus and no matter what the myths say, if you train for strength and actually get stronger, you'll get bigger. So shooting for a certain number allows me to kind of forget everything else. Just focusing on hitting a certain number, and eating to support performance in the gym. Basically, it's just best for me to get actual bodyweight out of my head unless it's a priority...



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Post by Jungledoc » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:25 pm

pdellorto wrote:How tall are you?
5'11", or at least I was last time I actually measured it. You know how us elderly tend to shrink. I was 6' in HS and college.

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Post by Matt Z » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:44 pm

Here are a few of my short-term goals:
2X Bodyweight Barbell Back Squat
2X Bodyweight Standard Deadlift
Bodyweight BB Overhead Squat
Bodyweight Barbell Military Press

365 lbs Barbell Bench Press
275 lbs Barbell Push Press
100 lbs Dumbbell Snatch

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Post by Matt Z » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:50 pm

PS) I'm 5'6" tall and about 225 lbs.


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