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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:14 pm
by hoosegow
I will try to answer what I think of how I understand what is being said. I will then relate it a way I had to to make it make sense. The way I am now picturing it is that the squat works forward, back and side to side movement. The one area that is missing is the twisting of the torso.

I am relating this to nutrition. You can still make gains with poor nutrition, but if you are missing something, you retard your potential growth. When you squat, you are only as strong as your weakest link. That very well could be the transversal plane (I think I got this right).

I am still not 100% convinced that you don't sufficiently train the core in a good lifting program. I am at least mostly convinced that if one aspect of my core is negelected, it is the transverse movement portion. At bare minimum, I am going to add some work for at least six weeks. The worst it will do is waste some of my time. I am at least sufficiently convinced to give it a try.

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:12 pm
by nice_guy80
so something like plank twists??

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:52 pm
by Ironman
I really don't think you need to twist. The obliques work fine without that. From what I understand, with the twisting it is very easy to injure your spine.

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:43 pm
by Peter Rouse
Here is a simple one for you try try and will give you better understanding.

Get a strength band and attach one end to a rack then standing out at right angles to the rack with arms out in front and band in hands walk out till tension in on band then hold the position for 30 sec while bracing. With this movement you are prevention rotation by using the core. Remember to repeat on the other side.

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:46 pm
by Ironman
Peter, did you see my post on page 2? If am wrong, could you point out some sort of evidence or study. My position looks pretty solid, but everything is subject to change on receipt of new data.

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:41 am
by KPj
Peter Rouse wrote:If you really want to learn then order Stuart McGill's book Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance and read it. It will give you all the answers you are looking for.

http://www.backfitpro.com/
I'll second that recommendation.

:smile:

KPj

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:50 am
by KPj
Ironman wrote:I really don't think you need to twist. The obliques work fine without that. From what I understand, with the twisting it is very easy to injure your spine.
This is true with regards to the lumbar/lower spine but it's not the case with the upper/thoracic spine.

KPj

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:26 am
by KPj
Also, not that I want to answer for Peter, and i'm not one to have a big collection of studies at my disposal. But Peter recommended Dr Stuart McGills book. Dr Stuart McGill has been involved in loads of research with regards to lower back health, what to do, and what not to do and why. Personally, i've only read the book that Peter recommended (which is brilliant), but if you check his site, you'll see he's been involved in tonnes of research. He also gets referenced on a regular basis from a lot of well known coaches.

Also, if performing things on two legs covered everything, wouldn't that automatically make you good at performing on one leg? i.e. squats Vs lunges? Of course it doesn't. But why, if squats and DL's were enough? Performing on one leg is a fundamental movement.

In the same sense, if you don't work both sides of your body seperately, how likely is it that there won't be any major discrepancies?

It may not sound like I have a point there but what i'm trying to emphasise is that squats and DL's don't cover everything. Personally I agree that they are among the best core exercises you can get, but again it's probably the difference between what's sufficient and what's efficient i.e. do you want to just 'get by' or do you want to maximise your performance potential, and minimise your risk of injury.

As far as I can see it's all ready been covered in this thread, but what Peter is talking about goes byond isolating the abs. It's about training the basic functions of the whole core, which goes beyond the abs and obliques. And let's face it, most who isolate the abs are doing it for spot reduction. What we're talking about is training the core to reduce the chance of injury and enhance performance.

In your post on page 2 it came across like you were saying squats and DL's are multi planar exercises? i.e. train all movement planes. As far as I know, the only multi planar exercises are single leg unsupported exercises, which is, on one leg, with the other leg not supported on anything, such as single leg squats/pistols or single leg DL variations.

KPj

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:53 am
by nice_guy80
you hit the nail on the head there

i don't want to get a six pack or anything, just want to ensure the core is as strong and powerful as possible so when i go playing sport it will help my ability to play and help to avoid injury in physical contact situations

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:52 pm
by Peter Rouse
KPj wrote:Also, not that I want to answer for Peter, and i'm not one to have a big collection of studies at my disposal. But Peter recommended Dr Stuart McGills book. Dr Stuart McGill has been involved in loads of research with regards to lower back health, what to do, and what not to do and why. Personally, i've only read the book that Peter recommended (which is brilliant), but if you check his site, you'll see he's been involved in tonnes of research. He also gets referenced on a regular basis from a lot of well known coaches.

Also, if performing things on two legs covered everything, wouldn't that automatically make you good at performing on one leg? i.e. squats Vs lunges? Of course it doesn't. But why, if squats and DL's were enough? Performing on one leg is a fundamental movement.

In the same sense, if you don't work both sides of your body seperately, how likely is it that there won't be any major discrepancies?

It may not sound like I have a point there but what i'm trying to emphasise is that squats and DL's don't cover everything. Personally I agree that they are among the best core exercises you can get, but again it's probably the difference between what's sufficient and what's efficient i.e. do you want to just 'get by' or do you want to maximise your performance potential, and minimise your risk of injury.

As far as I can see it's all ready been covered in this thread, but what Peter is talking about goes byond isolating the abs. It's about training the basic functions of the whole core, which goes beyond the abs and obliques. And let's face it, most who isolate the abs are doing it for spot reduction. What we're talking about is training the core to reduce the chance of injury and enhance performance.

In your post on page 2 it came across like you were saying squats and DL's are multi planar exercises? i.e. train all movement planes. As far as I know, the only multi planar exercises are single leg unsupported exercises, which is, on one leg, with the other leg not supported on anything, such as single leg squats/pistols or single leg DL variations.

KPj
That sums it up nicely.

Want the research? Just search Mcgill's name and you will find a ton.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:59 pm
by brook011
It works your back core, your front core, your neck core, your shoulder core, your bottom core.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:02 pm
by Ironman
I'm still pretty skeptical. I'll do some more research on it, but I am pretty sure the obliques get activated with the rest of the abs. My abs are quite large because of my choice of leg exercises and the obliques are in proportion to them. I have never isolated them. I have done some single leg training, but not much.

If I was going to get any bigger, I would do mostly leg press. I'm not into the small waist look, but I don't want to have powerlifter belly either.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:09 pm
by Peter Rouse
Ironman wrote:I'm still pretty skeptical. I'll do some more research on it, but I am pretty sure the obliques get activated with the rest of the abs. My abs are quite large because of my choice of leg exercises and the obliques are in proportion to them. I have never isolated them. I have done some single leg training, but not much.

If I was going to get any bigger, I would do mostly leg press. I'm not into the small waist look, but I don't want to have powerlifter belly either.
People were also skeptical when they were told the earth was round.... but that does not change the facts.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:09 pm
by Ironman
I saw the Stuart McGill interview on t-nation. He doesn't seem to like full range flexion or twisting of the spine. But I am thinking you may not be arguing in favor of that anyway. I don't really know though. This is like talking to ancient Chinese philosopher or Yoda. You speak only in riddles. Which makes people think wise ass more than wise.

So I think the only thing left is do we or do we not need single leg exercises for the benefit of the obliques. Either the answer is no, or it is just hard to find because most people do the twisting.

Now, for agility and any sort of sports application, I agree single leg training is a must. It has nothing to do with the obliques though. Also Dr. Stuart McGill said he wasn't talking about bodybuilding or power lifting. He didn't really say anything I disagree with.

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:02 am
by Peter Rouse
Ironman wrote:I saw the Stuart McGill interview on t-nation. He doesn't seem to like full range flexion or twisting of the spine. But I am thinking you may not be arguing in favor of that anyway. I don't really know though. This is like talking to ancient Chinese philosopher or Yoda. You speak only in riddles. Which makes people think wise ass more than wise.

So I think the only thing left is do we or do we not need single leg exercises for the benefit of the obliques. Either the answer is no, or it is just hard to find because most people do the twisting.

Now, for agility and any sort of sports application, I agree single leg training is a must. It has nothing to do with the obliques though. Also Dr. Stuart McGill said he wasn't talking about bodybuilding or power lifting. He didn't really say anything I disagree with.
Not wise, just well studied and I tend to think outside the box a lot.... maybe too much.

McGill has consulted many high level powerlifters and strongmen, most bodybuilders are stuck in the 80's (not all).

Single leg training will create load through the obliques but I thought we had finished with attempting isolated muscle loading so single leg work will train multiple movement subsystems but the obliques come into play through other lines of stress.