ab work

Ask or answer questions, discuss and express your views

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, jethrof, parth, stuward

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:11 am

I see what you mean. Some of those movements I suppose might have some use in certain sports. I don't know much about that though. I care about movements and functions more than most bodybuilders, but I don't really care about stuff that doesn't really do anything I need.

I go for size, fat loss, strength (including real world strength), power, and a little endurance.


KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Post by KPj » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:25 am

Well, I would be lying if I said it was something I cared about before i ended up injured and with various aches and pains. Its one of those things - no one cares about 'function' until they get hurt, including myself, as I would of scoffed at what i'm writing a few years ago.

As for any other benefit - well, i "think" it helps you get stronger and stay strong. However, one thing i'm very aware of is, "just because you got results, doesn't mean everything you done was right". I may of heard that somewhere but I like to think i made it up.

It's true though. In theory, if your body works more 'efficiently' i.e. both sides perform evenly, you can train the 'primitive'movements with a fullROM and with good form, then you can only assume your muscles all work better together and that will then carryover to your performance on the big lifts. But, when you train for strength especially, you do so many things which are ultimately all geared towards the same goal, so how do you know exactly how effective individual aspects are?

It's just my view that if something helps you get healthier, it helps get you stronger, or at the very least, helps you stay strong.

KPj

strathmeyer
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:55 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Post by strathmeyer » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:04 am

Peter Rouse wrote:
bob wrote:If you really want to develop a good core, the best way in my opinion is to do exercises such as squats, especially the front squat, and deadlifts. With good form of course. You can always do isolation ab work to define the abs, such as planks or stability ball oblique crunches to name a couple.
EMG studies would disagree
The only "ab work" I do is front squats, and when I saw this thread and read the article I thought it was a joke. How many of these am I supposed to be doing? I first tried it after a workout, did 10 level 4's, then reread it to make sure I was doing it correctly.

frogbyte
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by frogbyte » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:48 pm

Well I could do 23 "level 3"s with good form a few days ago... unlike crunches where I could do maybe a couple hundred...

KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Post by KPj » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:25 pm

strathmeyer wrote: The only "ab work" I do is front squats, and when I saw this thread and read the article I thought it was a joke. How many of these am I supposed to be doing? I first tried it after a workout, did 10 level 4's, then reread it to make sure I was doing it correctly.
The article isn't fresh in my memory anymore, but... Isn't it just ab strength TESTS ???

I've never heard anyone complain about passing a test before..... :wink:

KPj


frogbyte
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by frogbyte » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:35 pm

Well yea t-nation advocates squating as the primary means of strengthening the core it seems.

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:11 pm

We are complaining about the test, because of the way it is presented. As if that is the best way to do abs. It's presented as being the dogs bollocks, the cats pajamas, the bees knees and all around ultimate in abs. It's far from that. Hence my invention of level 5 (weighted exercises).

ninjackn
Novice
Novice
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:51 pm

Post by ninjackn » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:39 pm

I didn't find these tests as hard as the article made them out to be but could we get more specific information on Level 5 :grin: ?

Is that 55% BW holding the bar straight above your head and keeping it there? The way it is makes it sound like a decline push crunch.

Peter Rouse
Novice
Novice
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:31 pm
Location: Santa Monica, CA

Post by Peter Rouse » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:00 am

you may want to check page 79 of Low Back Disorders: Evidence-based Prevention and Rehabilitation‎ by Stuart McGill

pdellorto
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 5252
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 8:43 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Post by pdellorto » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:52 am

This thread calls for too much homework. Ab strength tests, required reading, questions to answer...

Besides my copy of Low Back Disorders hasn't arrived from ILL yet. :sad:

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:17 pm

Peter Rouse wrote:you may want to check page 79 of Low Back Disorders: Evidence-based Prevention and Rehabilitation‎ by Stuart McGill
One would be more inclined to do so, if it was known what we were doing it for. I think you don't realize that we can't hear your internal dialog. We only know what you actually type into the message.

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:33 pm

ninjackn wrote:I didn't find these tests as hard as the article made them out to be but could we get more specific information on Level 5 :grin: ?

Is that 55% BW holding the bar straight above your head and keeping it there? The way it is makes it sound like a decline push crunch.
I just hold it close to my chest and I don't press it at all. Make sure you use a short curl bar too. It would be too awkward with a standard bar. The % was just number I chose because that is about what I did. I did 110 while at about 200 lbs maybe as high as 205. I wasn't even close to lean at the time though. Probably 20% plus or minus a couple points. I had the "full house" look at the time. As in powerlifter or linebacker look. This was a while back.

This is not something you should do low reps though. Make sure you can get at least 6. Just for the sake of safety. You should work the weight up. Don't go straight to half your body weight first time.

Peter Rouse
Novice
Novice
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:31 pm
Location: Santa Monica, CA

Post by Peter Rouse » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:31 pm

Ironman wrote:
Peter Rouse wrote:you may want to check page 79 of Low Back Disorders: Evidence-based Prevention and Rehabilitation‎ by Stuart McGill
One would be more inclined to do so, if it was known what we were doing it for. I think you don't realize that we can't hear your internal dialog. We only know what you actually type into the message.
What have I been talking about the entire time?

Abdominal involvement in heavy lifting such as squat and deadlift.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:53 pm

Peter has made the point in previous threads that EMG studies have shown other exercises to be better for activating the abdominals than squats and deadlifts.

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:15 pm

Oh yea, I remember that in another thread. I remember I was supposed to look at this interview that time, however it didn't say anything about it.

I read it. You go to amazon, look up the author, click on the book. Then on the look inside thing search for EMG. Then you can select 78. This will let you read 78 and 79, which has the table on them.

This study did not test squats or deadlifts. there was "lifting a load" both light and heavy. But we don't know where it was being lifted from. Besides that you will get different results between barbell and dumbbell lifts, or back and front squats. This study only seems to indicate which body weight core exercises are more effective. This book is also clearly aimed at rehabilitation and not the general training population. There was an article posted here just recently showing how big a difference that can make.

Here are 2 links to a study supporting the standard deadlift and the back squat. One is easier to read. But the second one has more detailed information.

http://michaelreid.typepad.com/michaelr ... nal-e.html

http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/arti ... go=2499908

That doesn't test the front squat. We know that moving the load forward changes emphasis from lower back to abs. So while we don't know the magnitude of difference, we can conclude the front squat will work the abs even more than the back squat.


Post Reply