Training for a 5K

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KPj
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Post by KPj » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:55 am

2nd session, week 5

Dyn warm up

'movement stuff'

Resistance Training. (not really a circuit anymore so i've dropped the cool name)

-Box Squats to bench with band around knees. 10 - 10 - 12

Then Lateral walks with band around ankles. 5 reps to right x 3, 5 to left x 3.

Then Glute bridge (butt clenchers) with band around knees- 15-15-15 with hold till failure on the last set

-Push ups on back of bench s/s pull aparts. 7-8-8, and, 8,8,8

-Side planks, + front planks

Side, Left - 10,10,10, Right - 10, 10, 10
Front, 40, 40, 50


-Sumo DL's using band + standing band rows

8,8,10 then 10,10,10

She was clearly not feeling all that great last night. Anyway.... that's enough about that..... More limited time wise than usual, still didn't get to check her kneess/hips like I want to.

I changed the workout slightly, in ways that you can't really see from what I post on here. I record how much she rests, hand written on the printed programs, there's various things I write down, and i'm not very good at typing all of it up - usually do 1-2 months worth in 30 mins...

You also can't see the warm up or movement stuff (programs in themselves), but this is all flowing together better, one movements straight on to another. When these movements are picked correctly, they challenge you, so they leave you feeling fatigued. I'm also progressing her on the warm up movement stuff, adding in more challenging movements as she gets better.

An example of this is thingsd like Toy Soldiers. I know Peter will know what these are (it's in MM). My sis had zero psoas function, which meant toy soldiers couldn't be done without rounding the lumbar spine. So, as an example of progression, she's doing these well now. She progressed via lots of isolated Psoas stuff + walking knee hugs + wall marches. Started toy soldiers this week and she looks good. She'll be doing Reverse skipping toy soldiers in no time. Maybe.

Also, once she done a 'round' of the mini circuit things, I normally gave her some star jumps or something. This time she just took a swig of water and want straight onto the next set. Therefore, just equalling last times reps is improvement on that basis.

After each mini circuit thing was complete, she jogged the width of 2 football/soccer pitches and back (there's 2, side by side, at the park we train at). 2 purposes - to keep that metabolic effect, and to break her into running. Slow paced, on grass. Everything was pain free, nothing pi$$ed anything off.

She told me she felt good last night. This is good. I remember reading a good article by Valerie Waters about things to consider when training women and she mentioned her motto that she says to clients, "you are only one workout away from a good mood". It stuck with me so i'm trying to apply it.

I always gauge how she is before and after the workout, normally she's quite hyper afterwards, but really spent. I always ask how she was after she's been home, showered, eaten etc. So far so good. She normally says she get home, very hungry, eats, showers, very hyper and awake, then about 10-11pm she's 'out like a light'. She says her sleeping pattern has improved drastically. Atleast 8 hours everynight and sleeps right through. I never asked her this specifically, she just told me, so this is a good sign.

wow, long post. * shrugs *

KPj


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Post by Jaccard » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:32 am

kpj,

I've been reading your log with interest as I am a semi-reformed runner who has participated in a number of 5 and 10k races.

I'm wondering, how long until she runs the race? Although I long ago discarded the running mantra of 'more milleage' myself, there's something to be said for the principle of training specificity.

Depending on how many weeks she has left (and just how important time is for her), I would reccommend that you start getting her used to running for 30-odd minutes. From looking at your program it seems that you have been taking a GPP and injury prevention approach.

If she wants to run a fast time then I think she has to get in more miles, and they should comprise 3 types of running: HIIT (or mile repeats as you suggest), fast-paced (near goal speed) tempo runs of 3-5k, and 5+k runs to build mental stamina. Of course, if her goals are primarily fitness, weight loss, strength etc... then I think you are taking a MUCH better approach.

KPj
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Post by KPj » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:17 pm

Jaccard - Thanks a lot for the suggestions. Don't hesitate to keep them coming.

We're SIX weeks away from the race. Well, 6 weeks starting next week. I'm aware that's incredibly close....

I had planned to get some 'mileage' in from the start, to be honest. I was giving her some intervals, and on a sunday she was going a nice easy run, but her left knee flared up straight away. This put a spanner in the works in terms of getting some actual running done. From this point, I sort of ignored the fact that we had a race coming up, and just trained her as if she was loosing fat whilst fixing the knee.

Endurance wise, these work outs get her very out of breath. Even though things like "body weight squats" are easy for most, for my sis, these are very difficult. She's basically been doing cardio via resistance training, if that makes sense. I've been consciously either decreasing rest time, or increasing the amount of activity she does whilst resting, if that makes sense i.e. instead of resting for 30 seconds, she'll do start jumps for 30 seconds, then get right back to it. I know this isn't exactly ideal, but it gives her SOME endurance training - she needs to learn to recover quicker and under more difficult circumstances...

Basically, the running starts now. I started her jogging on grass yesterday, and she was 100%. Tomorrow (fri), i'm going to get her to run more on grass, and i'm confident she'll be fine. All going well, the next 6 weeks is all I have to actually get her running...

I would like her to run on grass before concrete over the next week or 2, but we can still get some distance/time in... I know she'll also need to feel what it's like to run on concrete...

I'm confident that if she doesn't do too much too soon, she'll be fine, knee wise. The 'movement' stuff has brought her from thumpy/clumsy and incordinated to almost 'agile'/springy and co-ordinated - it's great to see. I'm hoping this will make running easier, hopefully she won't 'muscle' every step..

In terms of her goals. At first, she wanted get the best time possible. But, at first, this was a kick start to a healthier lifestyle, and weightloss. Now that she's hooked on the resistance stuff, she's not that bothered about the run now. She just wants to beat 34 minutes? My older brother is rewarding her if she beats 34 minutes.

Anyway, you've already gave me food for thought. The plan largely depends on the knee, which i'm confident about. I think on friday i'll get her to jog at the end for 10 minutes or so, and see how she goes.

I'm open to any suggestions or scrutiny - everything will be taken with a very open mind.

Thanks

KPj

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Post by KPj » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:27 pm

It's also worth mentioning that she's prepared to go to a 4 day week.

My initial thought was, on, say, a Sunday, she gets the distance stuff in Just slow stuff, also to get over the 'mental stamina' side. Or do it via time like you said - ~30 minutes. Slow and longer anyway.

That gives me monday to repair any damage she might of done on the Sunday, and put her through a resistance training based routine (like she's been doing).

Then on Wed, give her the fast/interval type stuff - whatever way it happens. I like the thought of breaking up the miles, but if she finds one mile very hard to run slowly at first then we may need to regress a little...

So, in a nutshell, 2 days primarily resistance training/rehab, and 2 days primarily running. One for endurance and stamina, one to learn to run fast... I'm thinking that may be a good balance between "general fitness/weightloss/strength" and getting a DECENT time...

I duno... I think too much...

KPj

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Post by KPj » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:37 pm

Ok, i'm wrong. It's 8 weeks away. Well, it's the 7th June.

If i'm counting correctly, I think that means the week BEFORE the 'event week', would be 8 weeks away.

I don't know whether i'm miscounting, have miscounted how long we've been doing this, or.... I just started my count down early, so that I would be super organised. That's very possible, I do stuff like that, because i'm never super organised, so I try and trick myself. hmmmm

Confused. I'm off to lift heavy things, my mind will be clear after that.

KPj


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Post by pdellorto » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:53 pm

KPj, do you think her knee is going to be able to hold up for the 5K, practice run or not?

Running puts very different stresses on the knees than other activities. I can jump, box squat, deadlift, etc. without hurting my knee, but if I run it starts to hurt within a minute. So I'm wondering if she's going to be able to run pain-free.

Also, it looks like you've got a good person to bounce stuff off of - Jaccard is a runner! That way you aren't asking bodybuilders, fighters, and physical culturists how to run, you're asking someone who actually runs! :idea: :grin:

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Post by Jaccard » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:14 pm

I think ramping up from running from twice a week initially is a good plan. My advice would be to slowly increase her mileage by about 10% a week, reaching peak miles and then tapering the week before the race. I find the key to relatively short distance runs like the 5k is doing speed workouts like tempo runs and intervals since are basically running near VO2 max the whole time.

With tempo runs I'd try to get her to run near goal pace, so maybe 7-7:30/k, and have her ramp the distace over time. That will make the goal speed feel more comfortable.

With intervals, Id try to have her run faster than goal speed in 400 bursts. If she can do it about 2:30, followed by 400m of active recovery that'll help her increase her cardio capacity. Adjust the speed so that she is finding it really tough but can complete the sessions.

Besides strengthening, on the knee front one piece of advice I have is to make sure she is taking short quick strides to avoid additional stress which occurs when the knee acts as a brake. Interestingly, regardless of distance professional runners all stride 170x a minute or more... which if you try feels like super short strides.


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Post by Jaccard » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:24 pm

I should have been more clear:

Most important thing first is to get her endurance to the point that she can jog or jog/walk for ~30 minutes with a smile on her face. The tempo runs and the intervals will help her go faster...

the great thing about running is just how fast you can improve, which is very rewarding for the beginner. I tell this to my weightlifting buddies at the gym: you gain and lose cardio capacity faster than you gain and lose muscle mass and strength.

KPj
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Post by KPj » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:25 am

pdellorto wrote:KPj, do you think her knee is going to be able to hold up for the 5K, practice run or not?

Running puts very different stresses on the knees than other activities. I can jump, box squat, deadlift, etc. without hurting my knee, but if I run it starts to hurt within a minute. So I'm wondering if she's going to be able to run pain-free.
I'm optimistic... I think if I progress her well enough, she'll be ok. But, having never trained someone to run, i'm basically shooting in the dark... I don't believe there was anything seriously wrong with her knee. I actually think she was just generally screwed up and the knee was the first joint to shout about it. Considering what I found as well in terms of discrepancies - hipflexor/quad ROM, your talking about a 3-4 inch difference on the left side when I checked specifically, which is huge. Actually mad with myself that I missed this on the first session.

She also had weak glute med in general, but when checked in isolation, the left side was practically non existent. The TFL on that side was more restricted, too, and the ITband was so balled up that a slight bit of pressure would cause her head to go through the roof. But all of these discrepancies are either even now, or very close - I SHOULD be able to check tonight. I can really hammer into her ITband now, too, and she's not too bad, it deffinitly feels much better.

I've also been prepping her on the 'movement stuff'. She's improved drastically on this, as well as the warm up movements. It's hard to tell how much this will carryover to her running, though - I wouldn't know... I mean, it's close to running, it's basically just various wacky forms of running, lol, but again, I have no idea how it will work out.

With all those dicrepancies sorted, plus all round better movement, strength, endurance (local/muscular), and soft tissue length and quality, i'm hoping she'll be fine. She told me it feels like it was never sore. But it's easy to come to that conclusion when your avoiding things that hurt.

Realistically, I think she'll be ok running for ~10 minutes, and when fatigue sets in, everything will change. I've been reading a lot on this - how fatigue affects performance, and symptoms and therefore, assessment, and I 'think' I have a good strategy for it. What Jaccard said about increasing mileage in 10% increments seems like a great idea, too. I wasn't sure exactly how I would do that, but 10% seems liek a great place to start.

I'll also start her on grass, before moving her onto concrete. I think I should only move onto concrete a few weeks before the race, but i'll chin Jaccard about this :grin:

pdellorto wrote: Also, it looks like you've got a good person to bounce stuff off of - Jaccard is a runner! That way you aren't asking bodybuilders, fighters, and physical culturists how to run, you're asking someone who actually runs! :idea: :grin:


Absolutely! Jaccard has helped already, and i'm very gratefull for that.

KPj

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Post by KPj » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:38 am

Jaccard wrote:I should have been more clear:

Most important thing first is to get her endurance to the point that she can jog or jog/walk for ~30 minutes with a smile on her face. The tempo runs and the intervals will help her go faster...

the great thing about running is just how fast you can improve, which is very rewarding for the beginner. I tell this to my weightlifting buddies at the gym: you gain and lose cardio capacity faster than you gain and lose muscle mass and strength.
Thanks for this, this info is very helpful. So, I would say first task is to 'just get her running', and, aim to get get endurance/distance up to ~30 minutes. Then I would be inclined to do what you mentioned on your previous post.

I don't think i'll need to wait till she's running for ~30 mins before I start doing the faster stuff, but i'll need to play it by ear... Either way, first step is to just get her running, slowly, for as long as possible. I think 10% increments as you mentioned will be perfect.

The small strides that you mentioned makes perfect sense. It falls in line with something I read - that 'the best runners are the laziest runners'. I took that more as just not muscling every step but smaller strides also makes sense.

What do you think of 'hitting the road'? I'm starting her running on grass to reduce ground reaction forces. What I mean is, how brutal is it when you go from grass (or track) to roads/streets? i.e. do you think it's something that she could adjust to in 2 weeks, or are we better adjusting to it for longer? Am I just overthinking it? lol

Thanks again

KPj

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Post by Wouter » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:01 pm

You could also let her run on sand if there's a beach in the neighbourhood, it is easier on the joints and you have to use more power to run on it.
This should give her more speed to run on concrete.

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Post by Onlyethic » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:06 pm

also a simple suggestion: get her biking one or two days a week. this has the advantage of working cardio endurance without the injury risk of her running while she's still working on gpp and getting to an injury-prevention level. plus, biking is much more fun and doable for most people than running.

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Post by Jaccard » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:19 pm

I think your best bet with little time left is to run on concrete if she can run pain/injury free, since this is what she will have to do in her race. Biking will help, but probably not as much. If she wants to run fast she has to be training outside the comfort zone a lot of the time.


But again, it depends on the goal hierarchy - when you are training for a sport or a race the best training for performance is rarely fantastic for you long-term.

You planning on running alongside to pace her?

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Post by KPj » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:03 am

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. Unfortunately my options are pretty limited. We just have the parks near by, she doesn't want to go to a gym (so, no bike - which I would of actually preferred to start her on), and beaches are too far away.... But thanks anyway.

KPj

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Post by KPj » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:20 am

Jaccard wrote: But again, it depends on the goal hierarchy - when you are training for a sport or a race the best training for performance is rarely fantastic for you long-term.
That's a good point. One which a lot of people miss - especially when justifying certain methods. Like lower back flexion/twisting, you often get "well MMA guys do it in fights" - yeah... your point? I'm not an MMA guy! Or, " - insert powerlifters name - lifted with a rounded back when he pulled xyzlbs in his last competition".... Yeah - it was a COMPETITION, and he's a POWERLIFTER!


So, yeah, I needed to hear that. Botton line is - if she REALLY wants a fast time, she'll just need to 'lay it on the line', if need be...

Her issue is that she just wants to beat 34 minutes now. Before, "runniing" meant "exercise" to her, that's why she signed up. But now she knows running means running, and exercise means loads of things, and that she enjoys the resistance stuff, and isn't bothered about running anymore...

I think we'll just see how it goes. I think i'll just start by building her up to a 5K distance, a long the way we'll add some intervals, and just see how fast she does it when she does run it. I'm starting to realise just how short 5K actually is, i'm finding it hard to beleive she won't build up to it reasonable quickly, but who knows... My g/f walked to my gym at the weekend, it took her 13 minutes, carrying bags, and it's 1.1 miles - nearly 2K. My g/f is completely un trained, although she does have long legs and a long stride so..... Who knows..
Jaccard wrote: You planning on running alongside to pace her?
Ha. Well.. Actually, I think i'm more fit than I thought I was. I ran with her a little on Friday (still to post the session), and felt like I could keep that pace foever.... I would like it if, despite disliking endurance running, I knew I could go out and run ~5K...

KPj


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