DL form

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Ran
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DL form

Post by Ran » Thu May 13, 2010 7:16 am

Yesterday my DL form broke down at the 3rd set 4th rep. One of the side went down faster. That sort of broke my concentration and I suspect my back rounded in the following rep. Starting Stregth (which I follow) states that everytime you show up, you increase the weight. Now I am wondering in my next DL day, should I increase the weight or stick to the old one?

When this happened, I was moving 55 kg (121 lbs) w/o counting the weight of the bar. The week before, I was at 50 kg (110 lbs).

Thanks,

Ran


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Post by IceDane » Thu May 13, 2010 8:14 am

If you're doing sets with 4 reps or so, it's only appropriate to move up the weight if you can do the same amount of reps with the added weight. But for the most part, on lifts like the deadlift, adding the lightest plate on both sides is hardly noticeable.

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Post by pdellorto » Thu May 13, 2010 8:31 am

I'd thought the Starting Strength novice program only had 1 x 5 deadlifts, so there shouldn't be a third work set.

That said, if you're doing 3 x 5 and you couldn't get the weight cleanly for all 3 x 5, I wouldn't increase, it's too heavy for 3 x 5 right now. Stay there and get the 3 sets.

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Re: DL form

Post by Jungledoc » Thu May 13, 2010 10:07 am

Ran wrote:...55 kg (121 lbs) w/o counting the weight of the bar.
Why wouldn't you count the weight of the bar? If it's a standard Olympic bar, it weighs 20 kg. That's a big percentage of what you are lifting. Always include the weight of the bar when you report your lifts, cause you lifted that too!

And, yes, SS has only 1 set of DLs.

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Post by jtw » Thu May 13, 2010 10:36 am

pdellorto wrote:I'd thought the Starting Strength novice program only had 1 x 5 deadlifts, so there shouldn't be a third work set.

That said, if you're doing 3 x 5 and you couldn't get the weight cleanly for all 3 x 5, I wouldn't increase, it's too heavy for 3 x 5 right now. Stay there and get the 3 sets.
bingo - SS treats deadlift specially, in that the warmup set starts with 135 lbs (not an empty bar) and you only do 1 working set of 5 reps (as opposed to 3 sets of the other exercises). With heavy weight, deadlifts can be very taxing.


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Post by KPj » Thu May 13, 2010 10:42 am

I had a conversation about this a few weeks ago.

In talking about what we could lift - this is a friend of mine who had been telling people my training methods 'don't work' and, he could out bench all of us (including my beginners plus long term training partner). I eventually got him into the gym. This is all just a bit of fun, it sounds a lot more bitchy than it actually is...

Other person: Do you count the bar
Me: Um, yes?
Other Person: Why?
Me: Because I lifted it?
Other Person: I don't count the bar.
Me: Why? Don't you lift that aswell?
Other: Well yes but I don't count it.
Me: Stares blankly.

I count the collars if I put them on!

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Post by Jebus » Thu May 13, 2010 9:08 pm

I wouldnt raise the weight if you'r form was bad last time, get it right first, then start adding weight.

Ran
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Post by Ran » Fri May 14, 2010 3:01 am

Sorry, I guess I didn't worded it correctly. I actually do 2 Warm Up sets, and only one work set. When I said ' 3rd set 4th rep' I meant the 4th rep of the work set. Sorry about the confusion.

I was not counting the weight of the bar because I am not sure if its a standard Olympic Bar (in fact I do not know what one of those looks like) or a lighter one. But they seem to be lighter than 20 kg to me. I just use the same bar (the longest we have in the gym) everytime I DL and keep track of the weights by the plates.

Coming back to this, on that day, the weights were like:

1st WS: 5 reps with 20 kg ( 10kg each side) + the bar
2nd Ws: 5 reps with 40 kg( 20 kg each side) + the bar

Work set: 5 reps with 55 kg (27.5 kg each side) + the bar

What worried me was the last time I DLed I did the work set with:

5 reps with 50 kg (25 kg each side) + the bar,

and I did fine. But this time, the form broke. So am I increasing the weight too fast? Or could it be just a bad day?

In two minds wheather I should try my next season with the same weight as the last time, or increase the weight incrementally.

Thanks,

Ran

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Post by Ran » Fri May 14, 2010 3:03 am

And with the risk of threadjerking, is it too dangerous to lift w/o the belt, the DL and overhead press in particuler? I don't have, though planning to buy one soon.

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Post by Jungledoc » Fri May 14, 2010 3:11 am

An Olympic bar has a thin section that you hold, about 2.5 to 3 cm, I think, and larger ends where the weights go, about 5 or 6 cm in diameter. The thick parts are on bearings, so that they will rotate independently of the center part of the bar.

Why not just ask people at the gym how much it weighs?

If you miss reps one time, just lift the same weight next time. If it goes OK, then continue as you have been. Whether to increase the weight, and how fast to increase it are questions that you really have to answer by experience.

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Post by KPj » Fri May 14, 2010 3:20 am

Ran wrote:And with the risk of threadjerking, is it too dangerous to lift w/o the belt, the DL and overhead press in particuler? I don't have, though planning to buy one soon.
No not at all. Belts aren't a safety tool they're a performance enhancement tool - they help you lift more weight. The only safety aspect is that a lot of people can't lift confidently without one and, they can help prevent your lower spine from 'buckling' under load but, that shouldn't happen anyway if you refrain from being an idiot (which can be quite hard!).

I actually still don't have a weight belt...

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Post by Ran » Fri May 14, 2010 4:28 am

If you miss reps one time, just lift the same weight next time. If it goes OK, then continue as you have been
Will do that then doc. thanks. And we have weighing scale at the gym. Guess I will weigh the bar there next time. I am curious too..
Belts aren't a safety tool they're a performance enhancement tool - they help you lift more weight.
I thought the belts help to keep your lower back from rounding, and are safety tools that way...But I say this with my hands up in the air, I am too much of a novice here, you guys know better.

I actually still don't have a weight belt...


You must have a terrific form KPj...cause I guess you lift quite heavy.

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Post by KPj » Fri May 14, 2010 4:55 am

Ran wrote: I thought the belts help to keep your lower back from rounding, and are safety tools that way...But I say this with my hands up in the air, I am too much of a novice here, you guys know better.
You can still round your lower back with a belt on. Infact, to get the full benefits of the belt, you need to round a little. There's 2 ways that they help you lift more weight - you push against them and create more intra-abdominal pressure (tightness/stiffness) and you get some elastic recoil from them - if you squat heavy with a belt on you'll feel this straight away. To get that 'elastic recoil' effect from DL's, you need to round.

What they prevent is your lower back 'buckling' under a heavy load. That's the only safety aspect that's known for sure. This should only happen when going to a max attempt and, if you're an experienced lifter, it should pretty much never happen. I don't think it's ever happened to me. However, it would still be worth belting up for a max test. I train DL by a very old saying that "when you deadlift, leave a rep on the floor" and when you truly do this, it changes your perspective a little. I hardly ever do a true 1RM test on DL.
Ran wrote: You must have a terrific form KPj...cause I guess you lift quite heavy.
I've lifted over 500lbs without a belt. This was a 1RM test and if my other training partner was there, I would of probably used his belt. I lift from 400-460 almost every week for reps without a belt.

When I train DL I have 2 'ranges' of form - Safe and Perfect. I lift perfect and stop when it gets borderline safe or 'unsafe'. What this means is that I'll let my upper back round (which is still 'safe') on heavy attempts but at this point I either won't go heavier or won't do more reps - I have training partners to keep me right on that. A 1RM 'test' though, is different. I let things get horrible but that's also why I rarely max out. A true 1RM is never pretty.

I should state though that i'm not against belts. Infact I love them. I just see them as a means of putting more weight on the bar and not as a safety precaution. When my training partner got a belt, I tried some squats with it. I can say that I can't wait to max out on squats with the belt on. Purely because I know i'll lift more than I could without one.

KPj

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Post by Ran » Fri May 14, 2010 5:19 am

Clears my perspective. Thanks again KPj.


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