Max effort

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Ran
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Max effort

Post by Ran » Wed May 19, 2010 7:05 am

In Starting Strength, you lift your max for 5 rep everytime you hit the gym right? Now I heard a max effort is neurologically very demanding on your system and may 'burn' the nervous system out in the long run. This is true? Am I correlating it correctly?


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Re: Max effort

Post by stuward » Wed May 19, 2010 8:02 am

Ran wrote:In Starting Strength, you lift your max for 5 rep everytime you hit the gym right? Now I heard a max effort is neurologically very demanding on your system and may 'burn' the nervous system out in the long run. This is true? Am I correlating it correctly?
You're right on both points. That's why Starting Strength is a beginner's program. At some point the nervous system will require longer recovery than the program allows. Compare it to Madcow or another intermediate program and you will see that heavy workouts are only done once a week and lighter workouts are in between to maintain conditioning. For a beginner, this gives slower progress than Starting Strength but allows more recovery for intermediates.

Also, 5 reps is not max, but it is a reasonable compromise between nervous system fatique and training stimulus for beginners.

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Post by NightFaLL » Wed May 19, 2010 8:11 am

Stuward you seem to have a fairly solid knowledge base, what kind of routine would you recommend for an advanced trainee for bodybuilding purposes?

(Currently 2.3xbw squat, 2.5xbw deadlift, 1.6xbw bench)

I know CNS comes in to play a lot once you get to the heavier stuff, so was wondering what you'd recommend once you reach that point?

I've found it's hard to find information on advanced natural trainees.

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Post by stuward » Wed May 19, 2010 8:18 am

NightFaLL wrote:Stuward you seem to have a fairly solid knowledge base, what kind of routine would you recommend for an advanced trainee for bodybuilding purposes?

(Currently 2.3xbw squat, 2.5xbw deadlift, 1.6xbw bench)

I know CNS comes in to play a lot once you get to the heavier stuff, so was wondering what you'd recommend once you reach that point?
Someone is advanced after 1 heavy workout per week no longer brings progress or adequate recovery. Then you need to go to a longer periodization cycle. The simplest is the 5,3,1 program a lot of us here do. Fred Hatfield's ABC program is also appropriate. Ultimately, any advanced programwill have to be individually tailors and adjusted frequently in order to keep the gains coming. The more advanced you get, the more you need professional guidance or coaching.

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Post by NightFaLL » Wed May 19, 2010 8:20 am

stuward wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:Stuward you seem to have a fairly solid knowledge base, what kind of routine would you recommend for an advanced trainee for bodybuilding purposes?

(Currently 2.3xbw squat, 2.5xbw deadlift, 1.6xbw bench)

I know CNS comes in to play a lot once you get to the heavier stuff, so was wondering what you'd recommend once you reach that point?
Someone is advanced after 1 heavy workout per week no longer brings progress or adequate recovery. Then you need to go to a longer periodization cycle. The simplest is the 5,3,1 program a lot of us here do. Fred Hatfield's ABC program is also appropriate. Ultimately, any advanced programwill have to be individually tailors and adjusted frequently in order to keep the gains coming. The more advanced you get, the more you need professional guidance or coaching.
Appreciate it, that's what I was actually beginning to think. I study this stuff a lot on my own (pub med, lyle mcdonald's site, etc.) but I really feel like I might need to find an objective professional who can really tell me what I need to do, so my own bias doesn't get in the way.


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Post by stuward » Wed May 19, 2010 8:31 am

There are a couple of good books on the subject. "Practical Programming" is a good intoduction. I have a few more in mind. I'll make up a quick list for you.

Edit: I'll post the list under Book Recomendations so this thread doesn't get hijacked.
Last edited by stuward on Wed May 19, 2010 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Max effort

Post by Jungledoc » Wed May 19, 2010 8:43 am

Ran wrote:In Starting Strength, you lift your max for 5 rep everytime you hit the gym right? Now I heard a max effort is neurologically very demanding on your system and may 'burn' the nervous system out in the long run. This is true? Am I correlating it correctly?
Not really your max. Rips recommendation is that starting out you experiment to find the highest weight that you can lift for 5 reps with slightly slowed bar speed, then lift that for 3 sets of 5. Then each workout, you add small increments to that weight.

You are right that "maxing" is very demanding on the CNS, and should not be done frequently. That's not what Starting Strength asks you to do.

Also, remember that "maxing" with smaller muscle groups is far less demanding. You can max your curlz as often as you like.

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Post by NightFaLL » Wed May 19, 2010 8:54 am

stuward wrote:There are a couple of good books on the subject. "Practical Programming" is a good intoduction. I have a few more in mind. I'll make up a quick list for you.

Edit: I'll post the list under Book Recomendations so this thread doesn't get hijacked.
Thanks, sir.

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Re: Max effort

Post by Ran » Thu May 20, 2010 4:07 am

Right. Perhaps what I am lifting is 80-85% of 1RM. I was concerned if my 5 rep max is detrimental to my CNS in the long run. My concerned came from reading this: http://www.defrancostraining.com/articl ... part1.html

where, under the heading Major Modifications, it is said,’ I recommend rotating your max-effort exercise every two to three weeks to prevent your nervous system from getting burned out. Whether you shoot for a 3-rep max or a 5-rep max, the goal is to break your previous record every week!’
stuward wrote: Also, 5 reps is not max, but it is a reasonable compromise between nervous system fatique and training stimulus for beginners.
This answers my question. Thank you Stuward.
Jungledoc wrote: Also, remember that "maxing" with smaller muscle groups is far less demanding. You can max your curlz as often as you like.
Now thats interesting. Alas SS does not allow curls( how I miiiiiiiiisssssss them!).

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Re: Max effort

Post by stuward » Thu May 20, 2010 7:33 am

Ran wrote:... Alas SS does not allow curls( how I miiiiiiiiisssssss them!).
Throw them on fridays at the end of your workout. They won't hurt. Bill Starr used to allow it and SS is based on his work.

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Post by pdellorto » Thu May 20, 2010 7:45 am

I wouldn't worry about burning out your CNS if you're still making linear progress - adding weight to the bar every workout. Once you stall out and need to move to a linear program, it begins to be a concern because you're forced to lift near-maximal weights but can't recover fast enough from them to up the weight the next workout...but can't keep gaining without some kind of progress. That's when workouts like 5/3/1 and the Texas Method are brought in.

I hate to say ignore Joe DeFranco, but in this case, just stick with SS until the gains stop, and then worry about rotating your lifts.

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Post by ApolytonGP » Thu May 20, 2010 9:14 am

I love being a newbie! Am still getting consistent (small) gains, a year later. Will suck when I get off the gravy train. (Of course will be stronger, then...but still progress is motivational!)

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Re: Max effort

Post by Ran » Fri May 21, 2010 3:30 am

stuward wrote:
Ran wrote:... Alas SS does not allow curls( how I miiiiiiiiisssssss them!).
Throw them on fridays at the end of your workout. They won't hurt. Bill Starr used to allow it and SS is based on his work.
Thank you good sir. Will do that then.

Peter I am sticking to SS only, I am only 3.5 month old in it and I am lovin' it. And yes it is giving me nice gains. Was just wondering about that burn out thing which I read recently.

Ran

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Post by Ran » Fri May 21, 2010 6:00 am

ApolytonGP wrote:I love being a newbie! Am still getting consistent (small) gains, a year later. Will suck when I get off the gravy train. (Of course will be stronger, then...but still progress is motivational!)
I like this expresssion 'gravy train'.


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