Diet pills

Ask or answer questions, discuss and express your views

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, parth, stuward

frogbyte
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by frogbyte » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:55 pm

I'd rather not slurp on pesticides and heavy metals with my food, so organic seems worth it when it's available.


User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:28 am

frogbyte wrote:I'd rather not slurp on pesticides and heavy metals with my food, so organic seems worth it when it's available.
Non-organic does not mean with pesticides and heavy metals on it. In fact, heavy metals have nothing to do with it so I don't know where you are getting that. Some organic food has "natural" pesticides on it that are more harmful than anything used on the regular food. Organic just plays on the "natural vs not natural" fallacy in order to make a buck.

frogbyte
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by frogbyte » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:42 pm

Yes, "natural" is fairly meaningless, but "Organic" is an FDA-regulated term, capitalized per that distinction. It is -possible- that non-Organic food was fertilized safely and not sprayed with deadly pesticide, but you have no assurance of that. With Organic, you do, via a 3rd-party, which is better than nothing.

Artificial fertilizers come from industrial sources / petroleum / mining / etc and are high in heavy metals. There are lots of reports on that - what information do you have that there's some Organic source of fertilizer that's equally high in such dangerous compounds?

Also, where's the information that any Organic pesticide is as dangerous as a conventional one? Every Organic pesticide I'm aware of is non-toxic, even in fairly large quantities, whereas most non-Organic pesticides are deadly in even moderate quantities.

A. moss
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Columbus, IN

Post by A. moss » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:52 pm

......uh oh..... this cant be good.

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:12 pm

Organic may be defined by the FDA because it is a food claim, but what it is has nothing to do with the value of it. It is still based on the natural fallacy.

The rest of that is a red herring. I am not talking about those specifics. I am rejecting "organic vs non-organic" as a valid criteria for judging the safety and efficacy of pesticides. They need to be judged on their individual merits, not on the origin of their ingredients.


On a side not here are some pesticides listed with their Environmental Impact Quotient. The higher the number the more deadly the poison.

# Bt (organic)
13.5
# Acephate (synthetic)
17.9
# Soap (organic)
19.5
# Carbaryl (synthetic)
22.6
# Malathion (synthetic)
23.2
# Rotenone (organic)
33.0
# Sabadilla (organic)
35.6

So again, I reject organic vs synthetic as a valid criteria for judging pesticides.

Why do you believe in this anyway? Usually only liberals believe in all that organic crap.


hoosegow
Veteren Member
Veteren Member
Posts: 2004
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:40 am
Location: Texas

Post by hoosegow » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:22 am

Shlt guys. Can't yall lay off the pointless political debate in one forum?

robertscott
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Post by robertscott » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:36 am

hoosegow wrote:Shlt guys. Can't yall lay off the pointless political debate in one forum?
Hoose, I think you'll find that statement was a straw man and a red herring all wrapped up in a logical fallacy!

shame one you

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:15 am

I'll give you pointless, but it's not actually political.

hoosegow
Veteren Member
Veteren Member
Posts: 2004
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:40 am
Location: Texas

Post by hoosegow » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:11 am

When it comes to environmental issues - it is all political.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:21 am

I say we put them in the octagon and keep whichever one lives the longest.

I swear, if either of them ever sees the other one post something he agrees with, he changes his mind.

frigginwizard
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:44 pm

Post by frigginwizard » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:41 am

robertscott wrote:
hoosegow wrote:Shlt guys. Can't yall lay off the pointless political debate in one forum?
Hoose, I think you'll find that statement was a straw man and a red herring all wrapped up in a logical fallacy!

shame one you
you sir deserve a medal for that post

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:33 am

Jungledoc wrote:I say we put them in the octagon and keep whichever one lives the longest.

I swear, if either of them ever sees the other one post something he agrees with, he changes his mind.
Not true. Here is the most recent time I agreed with Frogbyte.

http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6 ... ght=#60088

I agree with him every single time he is right, or if it's an opinion, when we share it. Actually even on politics there are a few things we agree on.

I think it may be possible that he is contrary and likes to argue. I however only argue when I have evidence that I am right. I was originally on the other side of nearly every argument I have had with him on here at one time. Through debates with others and reviewing evidence, I discovered I was wrong and changed my view accordingly.

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3992
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:35 am

hoosegow wrote:When it comes to environmental issues - it is all political.
I suppose you could frame it like that. But strangely that puts me on the right and him on the left in this instance.

callipygian50
Novice
Novice
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:14 pm

Post by callipygian50 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:58 am

frogbyte wrote: Every Organic pesticide I'm aware of is non-toxic, even in fairly large quantities, ....
You must be unaware Nicotine Sulfate, which was the organic pesticide my mother favors in our vegetable garden because it really works,

"Some Pesticides Permitted in Organic Gardening" ( http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/CoopExt/4 ... rganic.htm ) says this about Nicotine Sulfate:
Nicotine is extracted from tobacco or related Nicotiana species and is one of the oldest botanical insecticides in use today. It's also one of the most toxic to warm-blooded animals and it's readily absorbed through the skin. (Wear gloves when applying it, follow label directions and keep pets away from application areas.) It breaks down quickly, however, so it is legally acceptable to use on organically grown crops.

Nicotine sulfate is sold as a 40 percent nicotine sulfate concentrate under trade names that include Black Leaf 40 or Tender Leaf Plant Insect spray. Nicotine kills insects by interfering with the transmitter substance between nerves and muscles. It's commonly used to control aphids, thrips, spider mites and other sucking insecticides on most vegetables, some fruits, flowering plants and ornamental shrubs and trees. Roses are sensitive to nicotine. Choose alternate pest control measures when treating insects on roses.

Nicotine sulfate has a DANGER warning.
The same source lists another toxic-to-mammals organic pesticide:
Rotenone is moderately toxic to most mammals, but is extremely toxic to fish.
Out of curiosity, do you garden?

robertscott
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Post by robertscott » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:22 am

frigginwizard wrote:
robertscott wrote:
hoosegow wrote:Shlt guys. Can't yall lay off the pointless political debate in one forum?
Hoose, I think you'll find that statement was a straw man and a red herring all wrapped up in a logical fallacy!

shame one you
you sir deserve a medal for that post
thank you, thank you


Post Reply